Pope Francis The Old Mass is Untouchable!
#11
(05-28-2013, 07:17 PM)OldMan Wrote:
(05-28-2013, 06:33 PM)nmoerbeek Wrote: Ill give you the highlight from the Article.

When asked by the Bishops in a Certain Diocese in Italy to withdraw Summorum Pontificium our Holy Father responded.

"The Old Mass is untouchable"

Sorry the article is in Italian but here is the source

http://www.ilfoglio.it/soloqui/18390#.Ua...Y.facebook


I find it very encouraging that his reply was so brief and to the point. He did not even seem to entertain the idea of taking it away.


He (Francis) probably meant he wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole...

I think if you consider the context of the remarks, your assement seems to be very pessimistic
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#12
(05-28-2013, 07:20 PM)nmoerbeek Wrote:
(05-28-2013, 07:17 PM)OldMan Wrote:
(05-28-2013, 06:33 PM)nmoerbeek Wrote: Ill give you the highlight from the Article.

When asked by the Bishops in a Certain Diocese in Italy to withdraw Summorum Pontificium our Holy Father responded.

"The Old Mass is untouchable"

Sorry the article is in Italian but here is the source

http://www.ilfoglio.it/soloqui/18390#.Ua...Y.facebook


I find it very encouraging that his reply was so brief and to the point. He did not even seem to entertain the idea of taking it away.


He (Francis) probably meant he wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole...

I think if you consider the context of the remarks, your assement seems to be very pessimistic

Well, ahem, after the past fifty years...
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#13
(05-28-2013, 07:21 PM)OldMan Wrote:
(05-28-2013, 07:20 PM)nmoerbeek Wrote:
(05-28-2013, 07:17 PM)OldMan Wrote:
(05-28-2013, 06:33 PM)nmoerbeek Wrote: Ill give you the highlight from the Article.

When asked by the Bishops in a Certain Diocese in Italy to withdraw Summorum Pontificium our Holy Father responded.

"The Old Mass is untouchable"

Sorry the article is in Italian but here is the source

http://www.ilfoglio.it/soloqui/18390#.Ua...Y.facebook


I find it very encouraging that his reply was so brief and to the point. He did not even seem to entertain the idea of taking it away.


He (Francis) probably meant he wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole...

I think if you consider the context of the remarks, your assement seems to be very pessimistic

Well, ahem, after the past fifty years...

[Image: tumblr_lz3gd4LugV1r6i3cdo1_500.jpg]
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#14
I'm interested in who these men were that asked for SP to be withdrawn?
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#15
(05-28-2013, 06:33 PM)nmoerbeek Wrote: Ill give you the highlight from the Article.

When asked by the Bishops in a Certain Diocese in Italy to withdraw Summorum Pontificium our Holy Father responded.

"The Old Mass is untouchable"

Sorry the article is in Italian but here is the source

http://www.ilfoglio.it/soloqui/18390#.Ua...Y.facebook


I find it very encouraging that his reply was so brief and to the point. He did not even seem to entertain the idea of taking it away.

The notion that the Mass is "untouchable" is only in the headline.  The body of the article doesn't really support the headline.

http://www.ilfoglio.it/soloqui/18390

The point is that the bishop Padovano of Conversano-Monopoli (near Bari) said in his ad limina visit that the Tridentine mass is causing great divisions in the Church and asked if the Motu Proprio could be withdrawn.  Francis said no.

Francis went on to tell the bishop to keep an eye on the extremism of some traditionalist groups, but also suggested that the bishop capitalise on tradition and seek to create conditions so that it may live peacefully with the novelties.  In other words, its the "mutually enriching" idea of Benedict, the hybrid missal poking its nose through the curtain again.  "Don't crush them (we know that doesn't work, we tried it for forty years), instead morph them."

Here's the key text: "E’ sempre monsignor Padovano a dirlo, spiegando che Francesco ha risposto loro di vigilare sugli estremismi di certi gruppi tradizionalisti, ma suggerendo altresì di far tesoro della tradizione e di creare i presupposti perché questa possa convivere con l’innovazione."
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#16
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/05...shops.html

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/#55...5863409510

Not quite as strong of an endorsement as is suggested by the title of the thread or the article originally linked. 
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#17
Actually all this is pretty meaningless........ and very little in the Church is "untouchable."
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#18
Just because the article is entitled that doesn't mean Pope Francis actually believes "the Old Mass is untouchable." See the Rorate posting on this:
Quote:According to what was mentioned by Bishop Padovano, Francis exhorted him to be careful with the extremisms of certain Traditionalist groups, but also to treasure tradition and allow it to live in the Church along with innovation.
"Extremisms" That's also Pope Benedict's attitude toward the SSPX, where he insulted the SSPX in his letter on the remission of its bishops' excommunications by saying: "Should not civil society also try to forestall forms of extremism and to incorporate their eventual adherents – to the extent possible – in the great currents shaping social life, and thus avoid their being segregated, with all its consequences?" He also calls the SSPX "representatives of a radical fringe".
Pope Francis Wrote:"See? They say that my Master of papal ceremonies [Guido Marini] is of a Traditionalist mold; and many, after my election, have asked me to remove him from his position and replace him. I have answered no, precisely because I myself may treasure his traditional formation, and at the same time he might take advantage, at the same time, of my more emancipated formation."
So, just as atheists and Catholics are both redeemed by Christ, so can contradicting beliefs simultaneously exist in the Church? His "more emancipated formation" reflects a completely different, contradicting theology than what the pre-Vatican II Mass does. I can't help but seeing Freemasonic, syncretist, Assisi-prayer-gathering-like, one-world-religion, religious indifferentism here…
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#19
Rorate has commented:

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/05...shops.html

Quote:Did the Pope say to resisting bishops: "Summorum will not be touched"? Not really.

No, the Pope did not say that, not even allegedly.

Il Foglio today carried an article by Matteo Mattuzzi with the following title: "Francis and Latin - 'The ancient Mass is not to be touched,' the Jesuit Pope once again surprises all. The bishops from Apulia ask for the removal of Ratzinger's motu proprio. Bergoglio says no: 'both new and ancient things are worthy'." Father Finigan has a translation of the relevant two paragraphs of the article here.

However, once again an Italian news source puts words in people's lips that were not exactly there. Mattuzzi's article was completely based on a post written by Sandro Magister for his Italian-only blog. Here is the main excerpt of Magister's post, with what the Pope supposedly said to the bishops of Apulia.

There were also indiscretions regarding the liturgy.

The Archbishop of Bari, Francesco Cacucci, started it, declaring to Vatican Radio that Pope Francis had exhorted the bishops to "live the relationship with the liturgy with simplicity and without superstructures".

Then, it was the turn of the bishop of Conversano and Monopoli, Domenico Padovano, who told his own clergy that the bishops of Apulia had complained to the Pope about the work of division created within the Church by the defenders of the Mass in the ancient rite.

And how did the Pope answer him?

According to what was mentioned by Bishop Padovano, Francis exhorted him to be careful with the extremisms of certain Traditionalist groups, but also to treasure tradition and allow it to live in the Church along with innovation.

In order to better explain this last point, the Pope would have brought up his own example:

"See? They say that my Master of papal ceremonies [Guido Marini] is of a Traditionalist mold; and many, after my election, have asked me to remove him from his position and replace him. I have answered no, precisely because I myself may treasure his traditional formation, and at the same time he might take advantage of my more emancipated formation."

If the words are authentic, they are instructive about the liturgical spirit and the style of celebration of the current pope.

But in what sense the bishops of Apulia have interpreted them is not certain.

Another one of them, that of Cerignola and Ascoli Satriano, Felice di Molfetta, a former president of the Liturgical Committee of the CEI [Italian Episcopal Conference], in a message to his diocese wrote among other things:

"I did not fail to rejoice with the pope for the style of celebration that he has taken up, a style inspired by the 'noble simplicity' determined by the Council, showing particular attention to the subject, about which he has not failed to give his considerations of a great theological-pastoral profile, shared by all fellow brothers who were present...

...

"Pope Francis, in light of certain phenomena of the recent past, regarding which not a few drifts have taken place, exhorted us bishops, referring also to some concrete examples, to live the relationship with the liturgical action, as work of God, as true believers, beyond every ceremonial triumphalism, acknowledging fully that the 'noble simplicity'of which the Council speaks is not sloppiness, but Beauty, beauty with a capital 'B'."

But to enroll Pope Francis among the ranks of the Progressives also in the liturgical field is at the very least far-fetched. It does not mean, in particular, that he is hostile to the liberalization of the mass in the ancient rite, decided by Benedict XVI with the motu proprio "Summorum Pontificum" of 2007.

While it is certain the Bishop di Molfetta himself was in that year one of the most combative critics of that motu proprio, before and after its publication.

He considered the mass in the ancient rite "incompatible" with the post-Conciliar one, and tried without success to make the CEI issue an interpretive note - in a restrictive sense - of Summorum Pontificum...
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#20
The gist of the whole debacle is summed thus (in my opinion):

Quote:Messaggio sottinteso: il Summorum Pontificum va cancellato, o quanto meno fortemente limitato. Ma Francesco ha detto no.

Literally: - " [The] underlying message: Summorum Pontificum should be deleted, or at least severely limited. But Francis said no."

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