Smokers
#11
(06-07-2013, 02:21 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: We abort babies and hand out morning-after pills to 15-year olds and yet we worry about second-hand cigarette smoke. What a screwed up world we live in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_worse_problems
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#12
(06-07-2013, 03:28 PM)dark lancer Wrote:
(06-07-2013, 02:21 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: We abort babies and hand out morning-after pills to 15-year olds and yet we worry about second-hand cigarette smoke. What a screwed up world we live in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_worse_problems
Dark Lancer, if you see a moral equivalence between murdering babies and the pseudo-scientific studies 'proving' second hand smoke is bad  and are actually invoking the fallacy argument, I will pray for you.
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#13
I committed an "informal fallacy" and didn't even know it!  LOL 

Seriously, I wasn't trying to make an argument for smoking or belittle the subject matter. I just said the first thing that popped into my head. And I stand by my original statement: it's a screwed up world.
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#14
We have arrived at the point where all Science is politicized. Michael Crichton wrote a book on this and he was a real research scientist. It has been coming for a long time. I'd say today the only way you can be sure of the facts is to make sure the study has been peer reviewed, and to have a good running understanding of probability theory.

Politicos  have screwed with everything. For instance it is now said we live longer, and simultaneously we need health care because 30 million do not have it. These two statements seem diametrically opposed. One with out  health care would seem to die sooner. Our much vaunted longevity is tied to abortion. If you kill 1 to 2 million babies, you also get rid of all the children that have would die in childhood. That moves the average pretty good.

This is just my observation and I'm paranoid and a conspiracy nut, but after Crichton wrote that book and also rejected Al Gore's global warming horsefeathers, and was on C-SPANN blowing this cabal up, he suddenly died of a heat attack. I suspect it was murder.

tim
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#15
(06-07-2013, 04:57 AM)Poche Wrote: If you smoke you are costing your employers money.

This assumes that all smokers have employers. I smoke and have no employer, so the author of this article is wrong right off the bat.  Second, if I did have an employer, it wouldn't cost him a dime in "smoke breaks" if he'd allow employees to smoke at their desks or wherever, so there goes the smoke break theory. Third, people who jump out of airplanes and race cars likely "cost their employers" lots of money but no one seems to have a problem with these "Exxxxxxxxxxxxxtreme sports" people. They're just kewl. And nevbermind folks who have lots of extramarital sex, and their STDs and AIDS. They're just kewl, too, and are expressing their sexualities and are liberating themselves from oppressive societal norms.

(06-07-2013, 04:57 AM)Poche Wrote: Smoking doesn't just damage smokers and people who spend  time with them. It also hurts the bottom line for companies that employ smokers.

According to a new study from Micah Berman at Ohio State, the average smoking private sector employee costs companies $5,800 more per year than one who has never smoked.

Annual cost estimates ranged from $2,885 to $10,125.   

First they came for the smokers. Then they came for the folks who ate too many French Fries. Then they came for the people who like to sunbathe. And on it goes, with no one caring about any group but their own, but by then it's too late. These SOBs are already giving it to smokers with all they've got, jacking up taxes so that cigarettes are just thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis side of being a black market item. They won't stop 'til they get blood, I guess. And I'm sure the money they're raking in isn't going to deflect the alleged costs of smoking on the health of smokers and anyone within 5 miles of one; it's likely going to Israel or something (nevermind the health effects of bullets being shot into Palestinian kids).

(06-07-2013, 04:57 AM)Poche Wrote: That's a pretty significant chunk of change. According to the study, on average there's about a $517 loss from increased absenteeism, a $462 loss of productivity related to nicotine addiction, a $3,077 loss due to smoke breaks, and $2,056 in extra health care costs.

The researchers were relatively conservative in their estimates, figuring five smoke breaks in an eight hour workday, three of which took place during assigned breaks.

This is a much higher estimate than a CDC study conducted a decade ago, which pegged the number at $3,400.

That's a big cost, particularly for companies with thousands of employees

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/cigarette-...42214.html

Pretty soon, employers will want to come investigate how many times you have sex with your wife, what you're feeding your kids, whether you change your furnace filter often enough, whether -- well, it could be anything. Give them the power over smokers and they'll take the power over you, the non-smokers.

P.S. Don't bash smokers at this forum. We get it everywhere else in the world and are not going to take it here. When they took away the simple joy of going to a diner to have a piece of pie, a big cuppa coffee, and a smoke, they took away way too much. T'heck with all the Puritans out there who feel the need to nag and micromanage other people's businesses. They make me ill. "Someone, somewhere, is having fun! We must put an end to it!"  There's a circle of Hell reserved for those people.

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#16
Vox on your Coat of Arms should be somewhere two Pall Mall's crossed like swords, and one should have lipstick on the end !

Pall Mall for the Win !




tim
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#17
(06-08-2013, 06:07 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(06-07-2013, 03:28 PM)dark lancer Wrote:
(06-07-2013, 02:21 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: We abort babies and hand out morning-after pills to 15-year olds and yet we worry about second-hand cigarette smoke. What a screwed up world we live in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_worse_problems
Dark Lancer, if you see a moral equivalence between murdering babies and the pseudo-scientific studies 'proving' second hand smoke is bad  and are actually invoking the fallacy argument, I will pray for you.

No, I say that pretending that smoking is unworthy of any discussion because abortion and contraception are legal is a fallacy.  This discussion had nothing to do with abortion or contraception.


Was Vox Clamantis' account hacked or something?
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#18
(06-08-2013, 06:07 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(06-07-2013, 03:28 PM)dark lancer Wrote:
(06-07-2013, 02:21 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: We abort babies and hand out morning-after pills to 15-year olds and yet we worry about second-hand cigarette smoke. What a screwed up world we live in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_worse_problems
Dark Lancer, if you see a moral equivalence between murdering babies and the pseudo-scientific studies 'proving' second hand smoke is bad  and are actually invoking the fallacy argument, I will pray for you.

I don't think he was saying that at all. What he was saying may have been a bit petty, but basically I agree with him.

As for scientific studies, I don't really need any scientific study to tell me that breathing smoke, secondhand or otherwise, probably isn't good for me -- it's a "no-brainer." The fact that the studies were not done properly doesn't prove that secondhand smoke is good for you or harmless. I'm pretty sure it's neither.
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#19
Here's a little something that was reported here in Chicago about the buses. We have a very good transit system and were using regular combustion engines. The News had a feature because they were changing buses, and they reported breathing the air from the buses is 13 times more dangerous than smoking. The upshot is there are a gajillions things most we have no idea about which contribute more to our dieing.

tim
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#20
(06-08-2013, 10:46 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: These SOBs are already giving it to smokers with all they've got, jacking up taxes so that cigarettes are just thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis side of being a black market item.

In Canada, where cigarettes are much more expensive than in most parts of the US (in Alberta, a pack of 25 will run you from $9.00 to $13.50, depending on brand), the government estimates that about 50% of smokes sold in Ontario and Quebec are black market, with the percentages dropping as you move away from those two provinces. They are made on the Native reserves or on the Indian reservations in New York and then smuggled across the border. Tax free, the price depends on how greedy the smuggler/black marketeer is. In Alberta they normally go for around $5.00 a pack, tho' I've spent as little as $1.00 a pack directly from the smuggler.
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