Smokers
#41
(06-10-2013, 12:27 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(06-10-2013, 12:07 PM)Tim Wrote: I take your point but all things eventually cause our deaths and smoking is hardly the worst. That's all.

tim

I'm having a hard time thinking of anything much worse than lung cancer. Hanging, drawing, and quartering is humane by comparison -- it's much quicker.

This is not a hypothetical issue for me. My mother died of lung cancer a few years ago. The only thing that made her pain bearable was a constant heavy dose of morphine, to the point that she was basically in a coma for the last month or two. And it was no fun before that either. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, and I fervently hope that something else kills me before it comes to that.

Go look at Lung Cancer and see how much of a problem it is overall, even among smokers. Check how bad breast cancer is too. It's more costly and pervasive. Check the deaths of homosexuals and their lifestyle costs too. That cost is all out of proportion.

I worked with smokers all my life and I only knew one guy that died of Lung Cancer. He smoked those little Dutch Masters black cheroots to the tune of two packs a day, about 40 cheroots. COPD is rampant among guys that worked in my industry.

Doctors attribute it to smoking to the smokers, and to Sulpho-chlorinated cutting oils for the non-smokers. Notice the different causes ? This doesn't include the carcinogens in grinding wheels used to make tooling. The cutting oils are atomized and rise along with the grinding wheel particulates and "rain" down in a fine mist which is not seen, but were breathed for 10 hours a day and 8 hours on Saturday.

Car and truck and bus exhausts we lived through were much worse than smoking and they are forgotten now but our bodies remember. Do you remember when the streets had all the wires for electricity, telephone, telegraph, and electricity for "street cars", and the Sun was obscured because of them ? I'll bet those had some effect too. Not to mention coal heat, and using the boilers to burn the trash and newspapers.

I'm not pushing cigarettes. I'm asking for relief from the persecution by taxation.

tim
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#42
I'm appealing for the not-trolling-of-FE by telling people to not appeal to worse problems just because their addiction prevents them from discussing smoking rationally.
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#43
I'll agree that cigarette taxes are unfair, but I'm not so sure that it's persecution. I think they just see it as easy money, like gas taxes and alcohol taxes. All these things are addictive in one way or another, and they know that people are going to keep buying them no matter how much they cost. So they can get away with taxing the hell out of them. So they do.

Conversely, I don't think the government really wants people to stop smoking -- look at all the tax revenue they would lose!
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#44
(06-10-2013, 01:57 PM)Grasshopper Wrote: I'll agree that cigarette taxes are unfair, but I'm not so sure that it's persecution. I think they just see it as easy money, like gas taxes and alcohol taxes. All these things are addictive in one way or another, and they know that people are going to keep buying them no matter how much they cost. So they can get away with taxing the hell out of them. So they do.

Conversely, I don't think the government really wants people to stop smoking -- look at all the tax revenue they would lose!

Alcohol and tobacco taxes are less immoral than gas taxes.  Gas taxes take money right out of the very livelihood of workers, while alcohol and tobacco taxes are levied on the unnecessary luxuries which some people consume.
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#45
I've only met one 'proud smoker' in my life...and he died in a 4-wheeler accident. Every other smoker I have known wants to quit. They keep gouging smokers with restrictions and taxes and they always think it'll get people to quit...maybe it does? I don't know. If smoking is sooooo bad for you and costs soooooo much money, why isn't Chantix covered by insurance?
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#46
(06-10-2013, 02:29 PM)Armor of Light Wrote: I've only met one 'proud smoker' in my life...and he died in a 4-wheeler accident. Every other smoker I have known wants to quit. They keep gouging smokers with restrictions and taxes and they always think it'll get people to quit...maybe it does? I don't know. If smoking is sooooo bad for you and costs soooooo much money, why isn't Chantix covered by insurance?

See my last post -- I don't think it has anything to do with getting people to quit. It's just a sure source of massive tax revenue -- let's find something that people just have to have no matter how much it costs, and tax the shit out of it. They'll have no choice but to pay the tax. They don't want you to quit -- they would lose a cash cow. Exactly the same reasoning applies to gas taxes. Gasoline isn't a physical addiction like nicotine, but you have to have it just the same. Nobody is going to quit driving because of the gas tax.
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#47
(06-10-2013, 03:02 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(06-10-2013, 02:29 PM)Armor of Light Wrote: I've only met one 'proud smoker' in my life...and he died in a 4-wheeler accident. Every other smoker I have known wants to quit. They keep gouging smokers with restrictions and taxes and they always think it'll get people to quit...maybe it does? I don't know. If smoking is sooooo bad for you and costs soooooo much money, why isn't Chantix covered by insurance?

See my last post -- I don't think it has anything to do with getting people to quit. It's just a sure source of massive tax revenue -- let's find something that people just have to have no matter how much it costs, and tax the sh** out of it. They'll have no choice but to pay the tax. They don't want you to quit -- they would lose a cash cow. Exactly the same reasoning applies to gas taxes. Gasoline isn't a physical addiction like nicotine, but you have to have it just the same. Nobody is going to quit driving because of the gas tax.

Gas is a necessity, tobacco is not.  Taxes should be applied more heavily to the things people use but don't need.
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#48
(06-10-2013, 03:26 PM)dark lancer Wrote:
(06-10-2013, 03:02 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(06-10-2013, 02:29 PM)Armor of Light Wrote: I've only met one 'proud smoker' in my life...and he died in a 4-wheeler accident. Every other smoker I have known wants to quit. They keep gouging smokers with restrictions and taxes and they always think it'll get people to quit...maybe it does? I don't know. If smoking is sooooo bad for you and costs soooooo much money, why isn't Chantix covered by insurance?

See my last post -- I don't think it has anything to do with getting people to quit. It's just a sure source of massive tax revenue -- let's find something that people just have to have no matter how much it costs, and tax the sh** out of it. They'll have no choice but to pay the tax. They don't want you to quit -- they would lose a cash cow. Exactly the same reasoning applies to gas taxes. Gasoline isn't a physical addiction like nicotine, but you have to have it just the same. Nobody is going to quit driving because of the gas tax.

Gas is a necessity, tobacco is not.  Taxes should be applied more heavily to the things people use but don't need.

As someone who has lived without a car for over 20 years now, I could argue that, but I won't. I will agree that gas is a relative necessity compared to tobacco, and that society as a whole could not easily do without gas. But that's not my point anyway. For a government seeking revenue, "should" is irrelevant. They will apply taxes wherever they think they can get away with it. Gas and tobacco are both perceived as necessities by those who use them, and that's the operative principle here. The government knows that it can apply a virtually unlimited tax to both items, because people cannot or will not stop buying them. Morality doesn't enter into it at all.
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#49
If people won't quit smoking because of the price, then they must not mind paying for them.

Longtime friends of my parents smoked for nearly 20 years before deciding that it was too expensive and too taxing on their health to continue, so they quit.  They've been off the junk for years and don't miss it.
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#50
(06-10-2013, 04:49 PM)dark lancer Wrote: If people won't quit smoking because of the price, then they must not mind paying for them.

Longtime friends of my parents smoked for nearly 20 years before deciding that it was too expensive and too taxing on their health to continue, so they quit.  They've been off the junk for years and don't miss it.

It's not that they don't mind --  they're addicted. They don't perceive it as a choice. When I was smoking, I considered it a necessity. I would go without food before I would go without cigarettes. When I did finally quit, it was entirely for health-related reasons. Having more money was a nice bonus, but that's not why I quit. I quit driving 12 years before I quit smoking, and it was much easier to do.
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