Urge Catholic Answers to retract!
#21
(07-14-2013, 11:48 PM)Geremia Wrote:
(07-14-2013, 04:04 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: They've brought a lot of souls to the Church
Or the Conciliar Church?…

I hear you.  But is there any other way to come to the Traditional Church?
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#22
(07-14-2013, 11:48 PM)Geremia Wrote:
(07-14-2013, 04:04 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: They've brought a lot of souls to the Church
Or the Conciliar Church?…

What's a 'Conciliar Church'?
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#23
(07-15-2013, 08:17 AM)Melchior Wrote:
(07-14-2013, 11:48 PM)Geremia Wrote:
(07-14-2013, 04:04 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: They've brought a lot of souls to the Church
Or the Conciliar Church?…

What's a 'Conciliar Church'?
"Conciliar Church" is those with "Spirit of Vatican II."

The term was coined by Msgr. Benelli in his letter addressed to the Nuncio at Berne regarding Abp. Lefebvre etc.:
Msgr. Benelli Wrote:The Holy Father charges me this very day to confirm the measure of which you have been informed in his name, de mandata speciali: you are to abstain, now, from conferring any order. Do not use as a pretext the confused state of the seminarians who were to be ordained: this is just the opportunity to explain to them and to their families that you cannot ordain them to the service of the Church against the will of the supreme Pastor of the Church. There is nothing desperate in their case: if they have good will and are seriously prepared for a presbyteral ministry in genuine fidelity to the Conciliar Church.
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#24
(07-15-2013, 08:04 AM)2Vermont Wrote: is there any other way to come to the Traditional Church?
I'm sure the SSPX, sede groups, etc., convert and baptize non-Catholics.
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#25
(07-15-2013, 09:49 AM)Geremia Wrote: "Conciliar Church" is those with "Spirit of Vatican II."

The term was coined by Msgr. Benelli in his letter addressed to the Nuncio at Berne regarding Abp. Lefebvre etc.:
Msgr. Benelli Wrote:The Holy Father charges me this very day to confirm the measure of which you have been informed in his name, de mandata speciali: you are to abstain, now, from conferring any order. Do not use as a pretext the confused state of the seminarians who were to be ordained: this is just the opportunity to explain to them and to their families that you cannot ordain them to the service of the Church against the will of the supreme Pastor of the Church. There is nothing desperate in their case: if they have good will and are seriously prepared for a presbyteral ministry in genuine fidelity to the Conciliar Church.

If you look at the rest of the letter and the context of this exchange, he is not meaning it like you are meaning, but distinguishing the real Church as the one governed and taught by the most recent Council, and not some ethereal Church ostensibly being  proposed by Lefebrve that rejected the Council . 
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#26
(07-15-2013, 01:32 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
(07-15-2013, 09:49 AM)Geremia Wrote: "Conciliar Church" is those with "Spirit of Vatican II."

The term was coined by Msgr. Benelli in his letter addressed to the Nuncio at Berne regarding Abp. Lefebvre etc.:
Msgr. Benelli Wrote:The Holy Father charges me this very day to confirm the measure of which you have been informed in his name, de mandata speciali: you are to abstain, now, from conferring any order. Do not use as a pretext the confused state of the seminarians who were to be ordained: this is just the opportunity to explain to them and to their families that you cannot ordain them to the service of the Church against the will of the supreme Pastor of the Church. There is nothing desperate in their case: if they have good will and are seriously prepared for a presbyteral ministry in genuine fidelity to the Conciliar Church.

If you look at the rest of the letter and the context of this exchange, he is not meaning it like you are meaning, but distinguishing the real Church as the one governed and taught by the most recent Council, and not some ethereal Church ostensibly being  proposed by Lefebrve that rejected the Council .
Why didn't he just say "Church", then?
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#27
(07-15-2013, 01:47 PM)Geremia Wrote:
(07-15-2013, 01:32 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
(07-15-2013, 09:49 AM)Geremia Wrote: "Conciliar Church" is those with "Spirit of Vatican II."

The term was coined by Msgr. Benelli in his letter addressed to the Nuncio at Berne regarding Abp. Lefebvre etc.:
Msgr. Benelli Wrote:The Holy Father charges me this very day to confirm the measure of which you have been informed in his name, de mandata speciali: you are to abstain, now, from conferring any order. Do not use as a pretext the confused state of the seminarians who were to be ordained: this is just the opportunity to explain to them and to their families that you cannot ordain them to the service of the Church against the will of the supreme Pastor of the Church. There is nothing desperate in their case: if they have good will and are seriously prepared for a presbyteral ministry in genuine fidelity to the Conciliar Church.

If you look at the rest of the letter and the context of this exchange, he is not meaning it like you are meaning, but distinguishing the real Church as the one governed and taught by the most recent Council, and not some ethereal Church ostensibly being  proposed by Lefebrve that rejected the Council .
Why didn't he just say "Church", then?


Could it be that when Paul VI changed all the rites of the Roman Rite, despite the perennial Church saying that this cannot be done that Paul VI essentially established a new (small "c") church? How else can one explain the fact that the Roman Rite has two sets of "rites" now? Fr. Gregory Hesse covers this in a talk here: 

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#28
(07-14-2013, 04:04 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(07-13-2013, 07:44 PM)RedCaves Wrote: (snip)

However, I can never hate them. Their information helped me out during the darkest days of my life. :|

I hope you never hate them! That wouldn't be good. Even though they are not fair in the least to trads, and though they water down the Faith in many ways, they are humans and fellow Catholics. And for all the bad they do in the aforementioned areas, they also do teach Protestants about (at least some of the) the errors of Protestantism. They've brought a lot of souls to the Church, so praise God for that.

It's like most anything else:  leave the gun, take the cannoli. Er, I mean, take the good, leave the bad. Educate them as you can and pray for them. That's about all we can do.  And to folks reading over our shoulders, having at 'em with guns a-blazin' won't help the situation at all. A calm, cool, logical, charitable, warm approach is the way to go about getting them to see trads as -- well, calm, cool, logical, charitable, and warm, as opposed to the frothing-at-the-mouth caricature that's out there (and that's based on the kernel of Truth that some trads are "rad trads.")

I agree with Vox. As much as I think CA is a lot of choice words, God Bless them. We have our little corner here so I thank God and Vox for that. I think in all reality Christianity nor any religion for that matter ever was popular. The essence of all religion is keep man's ego in check. Few see the benefit in that so they make gods out of everything and appoint themselves as supreme gods. I'm happy with my little hole in the universe and someday God will settle the score. I don't care if I never see it because worrying about things you have no control over is pointless. I just state my piece and if its accepted great if not too bad. 
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#29
(07-15-2013, 02:18 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: Could it be that when Paul VI changed all the rites of the Roman Rite, despite the perennial Church saying that this cannot be done that Paul VI essentially established a new (small "c") church? How else can one explain the fact that the Roman Rite has two sets of "rites" now? Fr. Gregory Hesse covers this in a talk here: 


That's interesting, but at most there are different uses, not rites. And the Pope had the power to change all the rites. That's part of the Pope's power. A short explanation here:

http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...437.0.html
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#30
(07-15-2013, 01:47 PM)Geremia Wrote:
(07-15-2013, 01:32 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
(07-15-2013, 09:49 AM)Geremia Wrote: "Conciliar Church" is those with "Spirit of Vatican II."

The term was coined by Msgr. Benelli in his letter addressed to the Nuncio at Berne regarding Abp. Lefebvre etc.:
Msgr. Benelli Wrote:The Holy Father charges me this very day to confirm the measure of which you have been informed in his name, de mandata speciali: you are to abstain, now, from conferring any order. Do not use as a pretext the confused state of the seminarians who were to be ordained: this is just the opportunity to explain to them and to their families that you cannot ordain them to the service of the Church against the will of the supreme Pastor of the Church. There is nothing desperate in their case: if they have good will and are seriously prepared for a presbyteral ministry in genuine fidelity to the Conciliar Church.

If you look at the rest of the letter and the context of this exchange, he is not meaning it like you are meaning, but distinguishing the real Church as the one governed and taught by the most recent Council, and not some ethereal Church ostensibly being  proposed by Lefebrve that rejected the Council .
Why didn't he just say "Church", then?

Because Lefebvre was using the word "Church" to refer to something else. It's like calling the whole Catholic Church Roman, to distinguish it from those who claim the Catholic Church is not governed by the Church of Rome. Of course, some, like Anglicans, use that phrase to diminish the Church just as other use Benelli's phrase to dominish the Church.
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