Vatican sources say second miracle approved for John Paul II
#31
I strongly think it's imprudent to canonize the late Pontiff (may he rest in Christ) and don't think he should be. Nonetheless I actually believe he is in Heaven and pray to him on occasion. If the Pope canonizes him then God's Will is done, I will accept this Sacred Dogma of the Catholic Faith. Glory and praise to the most merciful and holy God! I still think it will be a disaster for the Church at least without an explanation like Scotus talked about. Not that I think Catholics will reject martyrdom just because of his actions. They really didn't know their Faith anyway if they reject such a grace from God.
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#32
(06-19-2013, 03:49 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(06-19-2013, 03:42 PM)Whitey Wrote: Then there are those like myself who don't feel a need to judge him in order to practice the Faith. :shrug:

Assisi and the Koran kiss bugs me, but I've done worse things in my sinful past.

Honestly, I personally still do just as badly on occasion.  :blush:

Probably most all of us , truth be known.
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#33
(06-19-2013, 05:39 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote:
(06-19-2013, 05:23 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: On behalf of Mumford and Sons:

Rate yourself and rake yourself
Take all the courage you have left
Waste it on fixing all the problems
That you made in your own head


No offense, Scrip, but....

It's not saying its raining. It's explaining that piss can be washed off.
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#34
Thanks, Scrip. I understand. I agree, it can and will be, I trust in God. Again, I meant no offense, just a little jab at the situation by me, that's all.  :jabs:
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#35
(06-19-2013, 03:42 PM)Whitey Wrote: Then there are those like myself who don't feel a need to judge him in order to practice the Faith. :shrug:

Assisi and the Koran kiss bugs me, but I've done worse things in my sinful past.

For this reason those things that bug you and bother you bug and bother me as well.

Yet when I look at my past ways of living which are extremely awful I can't cast judgement on him if I don't cast judgement on myself.

I know that those things described above where not the best of actions but as John Salza says in his online article No criticism of John Paul II?  we must differentiate the difference between the pope's objective actions and his subjective intentions. We can't pretend that we know the mind of the pope. For this we ought to cut hims some slack and not compare him to some popes which were way worse than him. Neverless let us pray for him and all others :pray2:
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#36
(06-20-2013, 08:21 PM)ArturoOrtiz Wrote: We can't pretend that we know the mind of the pope. For this we ought to cut hims some slack and not compare him to some popes which were way worse than him.

Yes, we cannot and must not try to judge these acts in the internal forum, but, nevertheless, to refuse to judge an act in the external forum is wrong as it effectively condones evil.

There were many immoral Popes, some of whom were given to sins of the flesh. That being said, a public violation of the First Commandment by a Roman Pontiff is far more grave than a carnal sin since it is a sin against the virtue of faith.

What does the Angelic Doctor say about such a sin?
St Thomas Aquinas Wrote:The gravity of sin is determined by the interval which it places between man and God; now sin against faith, divides man from God as far as possible, since it deprives him of the true knowledge of God; it therefore follows that sin against faith is the greatest of all sins.
Summa Theologica II-II, Q. 10, a. 3.

This precisely the problem with the beatification and the imminent canonisation: Catholics are performing mental somersaults, and ignoring the fundamental truths of the faith, to diminish the gravity of what the late Pope did, since "if Saint John Paul II did it it can't have been all that bad".
The Holy Spirit Wrote:Woe to you that call evil good, and good evil: that put darkness for light, and light for darkness: that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter.
Isaiah 5:20
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#37
It is not necessary to compromise the Faith to accept the canonization of JPII. Saint Sebastian here has just shown how this is possible. If someone has such scruples about this, then ignore it. Leave the forum and stop reading Catholic news. Or try to get over your scruple. And perhaps this is a wake up call to Catholics to have a better understanding of the saints. They are available for intercession. They are our friends in heaven. We shouldn't be so foolish to copy their lives word for word. Furthermore, we should see any faults in their lives as exemplary of the true spirit of sanctity -- overcoming sin and embracing true friendship with our Lord. While it is possible to interpret a canonization as an implicit acceptance of these disputed acts of his, it is not necessary nor explicit, and therefore one should not trouble their minds with such things. Not to deny, but to wisely (and practically) leave aside, especially if you have a scruple in this matter. It is not our job to figure every thing out in God's way, which are not ours. It isn't a virtue to brave into matters you don't understand and lose your Faith. It is foolish to say your understanding takes precedence over the Vicar of Christ's infallible decision (when it comes). Our Lord said the evil of the day is sufficient. Don't add to the trials of our time, because our crosses are already built into our life through our nature. A little Buddhist wisdom to exemplify the point (which I retain from my past):

Abbot to student: Is a mountain heavy?
Student: Of course! It is immense.
Abbot: It may be heavy in and of itself, but as long as we don't try to lift it up, it won't be heavy for us.

Catholic Moral: Don't make your crosses your burden. Jesus has already lifted the burdens for us. You don't deny their existence — the mountains are heavy — and you don't run away from them. You deal with problems where you have to and solve them where you can. You simply learn how not to carry them around.

AND

The Buddha stated that life in itself, as a Catholic would say, with fallen nature, is like an arrow shot into you -- you are wounded. Your mental exacerbation of that arrow is like a second arrow you place in the same wound. Catholic moral: Forgive and forget. Don't bear grudges. Be quick to reconcile. Take joy in another's good. Don't deny wrongs, but don't add to them with your mental worries or anguish. Let them be like water off a duck's back.

Why? Because, again, Jesus has born the burdens for us, and we know the Church is true. Trust, have faith. We shouldn't need the Buddhists to tell us this stuff. Be Catholic. Be happy for our late Pope. And continue to correct and assist people who are mistaken about matters of Catholic faith and morals.
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#38
On mainstream catholic radio yesterday, a caller took Colin Donovan to task regarding the pending canonization of JP2 in light of his having "participated" in pagan religious practices (caller mentioned the blessing of the pope by a pagan witch doctor). The response IS Pope John Paul II's legacy...

To paraphrase, "of course the Church never taught one had to be a formal member of the Catholic Church"..."of course the Church has always taught that God sprinkled elements of Sanctification" all over the world outside of the Catholic Church"..."Pope JP2 just emphasized what we have.in common with those outside the Church rather than what separates us."

All makes perfect sense if one squints his eyes real tight, stands on one's head and removes half of one's brain.

However, for those of us not willing to partake in such mental gymnastics, for those of us who actually think about what pope JP2 did, what the Church taught about EENS and related issues prior to V2 and about the weak "emperor's new clothes are beautiful" answer...well the picture is not so peachy.

Lord help us.

DD
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#39
(06-21-2013, 04:59 AM)Scotus Wrote:
(06-20-2013, 08:21 PM)ArturoOrtiz Wrote: We can't pretend that we know the mind of the pope. For this we ought to cut hims some slack and not compare him to some popes which were way worse than him.

Yes, we cannot and must not try to judge these acts in the internal forum, but, nevertheless, to refuse to judge an act in the external forum is wrong as it effectively condones evil.

There were many immoral Popes, some of whom were given to sins of the flesh. That being said, a public violation of the First Commandment by a Roman Pontiff is far more grave than a carnal sin since it is a sin against the virtue of faith.

What does the Angelic Doctor say about such a sin?
St Thomas Aquinas Wrote:The gravity of sin is determined by the interval which it places between man and God; now sin against faith, divides man from God as far as possible, since it deprives him of the true knowledge of God; it therefore follows that sin against faith is the greatest of all sins.
Summa Theologica II-II, Q. 10, a. 3.

This precisely the problem with the beatification and the imminent canonisation: Catholics are performing mental somersaults, and ignoring the fundamental truths of the faith, to diminish the gravity of what the late Pope did, since "if Saint John Paul II did it it can't have been all that bad".
The Holy Spirit Wrote:Woe to you that call evil good, and good evil: that put darkness for light, and light for darkness: that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter.
Isaiah 5:20

Well said. As I've mentioned in another thread regarding this subject, I think that the late Pope suffered toward the end of his life, and showed heroic virtue in doing do, which is to be commended. But what is mentioned in the above post is very important, because sins against the First Commandment by a Roman Pontiff are serious. It will be as if all of the novelties of the post V2 era will also be canonized along with the Pope - if he is canonized, and it's not a done deal yet. I do have respect for the memory of the late Pope, but nuttier things he did shouldn't be ignored.
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#40
It wouldn't bother me too badly if JP2 is canonized, but I think that's mostly because I'm too young to have been aware of anything he was doing when he was the Pope. In hindsight, it's aggravating, but I'm sure for those of you who were sentient and lived through it, it's really aggravating, so I sympathize greatly.

What would really bother me is if Dorothy Day is canonized. When Dorothy Day is canonized before J.R.R. Tolkien, then I'll know for sure that something ain't right.  :)
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