Cardinal Dolan makes first visit to NYC mosque
#21
It's chancy to say anything like this. I am sure he means not losing their faith in God, as opposed to becoming atheists. I don't think he means staying Muslim and rejecting Jesus. The obvious topic seems to be people of faith versus the faithless secular culture and government, as opposed to Muslims versus Christians as a religious conflict. And maybe in the mix they can tone down the extremist Muslims. I think that conversion is helped by teaming up together on some ventures (like working against abortion) against the Babylon we live in and are under, but we can't ever stop preaching Christ Crucified as the only means to heaven. We also can't take one event and speech of a person and conclude that that is their entire gospel. I, always, would be more interested in an unedited transcript.
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#22
(06-21-2013, 03:16 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: It's chancy to say anything like this. I am sure he means not losing their faith in God, as opposed to becoming atheists. I don't think he means staying Muslim and rejecting Jesus. The obvious topic seems to be people of faith versus the faithless secular culture and government, as opposed to Muslims versus Christians as a religious conflict. And maybe in the mix they can tone down the extremist Muslims. I think that conversion is helped by teaming up together on some ventures (like working against abortion) against the Babylon we live in and are under, but we can't ever stop preaching Christ Crucified as the only means to heaven. We also can't take one event and speech of a person and conclude that that is their entire gospel. I, always, would be more interested in an unedited transcript.

ArchBishop Dolan is a Prince of The Church, charged with the Pastoral care of the Flock entrusted to Him. As a successor to the first Apostles, He is to defend and promote the Faith, whole and unabridged. He is to Instruct His flock and His Priests in the true Faith and to guard the Faithful against heresy, false teachers and dangers lurking from which they might jeopardize their salvation. His appearing with, and seemingly agreeing with the muslims is an act of relativism that leads to scandal amongst his Flock. If He did not Preach Christ Crucified at that event, just as He apparently did not do at the Al Smith Dinner, He has failed miserably as a Bishop. Only one of the original Apostles did not die a Martyr, St. John, and he died in exile on Patmos. I pray for Bishops with the Faith of the least of the Apostles.  :'((
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#23
(06-21-2013, 03:16 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: It's chancy to say anything like this. I am sure he means not losing their faith in God, as opposed to becoming atheists. I don't think he means staying Muslim and rejecting Jesus. The obvious topic seems to be people of faith versus the faithless secular culture and government, as opposed to Muslims versus Christians as a religious conflict. And maybe in the mix they can tone down the extremist Muslims. I think that conversion is helped by teaming up together on some ventures (like working against abortion) against the Babylon we live in and are under, but we can't ever stop preaching Christ Crucified as the only means to heaven. We also can't take one event and speech of a person and conclude that that is their entire gospel. I, always, would be more interested in an unedited transcript.

Ah yes. If only all people of faith could unite together, we could certainly drive out the pest of irreligion. But ya know what? This notion was condemned even when applied to all Christian religions, let alone non-christian religions.

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, cf 4 Wrote:... All Christians, they add, should be as "one": for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength ... But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a most grave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed.

What we are seeing is not churchmen simply ignoring Mortalium Animos. We are seeing the effects of fifty years of ignoring Mortalium Animos and a host of other Church teachings and practices play out before our eyes.

DD
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#24
What you're witnessing here with Cardinal Dolan is the direct result of the religious pluralism implicit in the documents of Vatican II. Just read Nostra Aetate and Lumen Gentium. These documents pretty much declare that those that still have not received the gospel are related in various ways to the people of God, that Jews are especially dear to God, but the plan of salvation also includes all that acknowledge the Creator, including Muslims, and that those who by their conscience strive to do God's will can also be saved.

The documents imply that Catholics should pray for the Jews, not for the conversion of the Jews, and it declares that the Church look upon Muslims with esteem and that missionary work should be directed towards those who are still involved in the worship of idols. The documents of Vatican II really do seem to say that there are great multitudes of people who consciously reject the Catholic Church and Jesus Christ as their Saviour, and yet will be saved.

As I see it, the problem is if you want all roads to lead to God, then you have to get the exclusiveness of Christ and His Church out of the way. Traditional Catholicism, as a result, will get pushed further and further to the periphery of the faith. Until many of these troubling documents of Vatican II are clarified and aligned with tradition, I can see no possibility of a change in course that the Church finds herself on.  Until then, as believers, we are in the unenviable position of having to either let go of the exclusiveness of Christ and His Church or watch as the Bark of Peter seemingly sails farther and farther away from those sacred truths that she was charged to protect. It saddens me to no end that, as believers, we are being forced to choose.
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#25
(06-21-2013, 05:03 PM)DustinsDad Wrote: Ah yes. If only all people of faith could unite together, we could certainly drive out the pest of irreligion. But ya know what? This notion was condemned even when applied to all Christian religions, let alone non-christian religions.

It is better not best. One need not reject what is better just because we have not yet achieved what is best.

And Pius XI did not condemn efforts to unity in themselves, but seeking unity in something other than faith. That was precisely what was and is going on -- placing the crux of unity on some other factor besides common profession of faith. That's called false irenicism, which Vatican II plainly spoke against as supremely "foreign to the spirit of ecumenism". I don't think there is suspicion here that Card. Dolan us purposely hiding more specifically Catholic doctrines to achieve a false peace. Furthermore, It doesn't hurt on the road to true unity agreeing to be friendly with one another on issues you have in common. That just seems smart to me, and a win-win. I see no virtue is being a unreasonable.
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#26
(06-21-2013, 05:33 PM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(06-21-2013, 05:03 PM)DustinsDad Wrote: Ah yes. If only all people of faith could unite together, we could certainly drive out the pest of irreligion. But ya know what? This notion was condemned even when applied to all Christian religions, let alone non-christian religions.

It is better not best. One need not reject what is better just because we have not yet achieved what is best.

And Pius XI did not condemn efforts to unity in themselves, but seeking unity in something other than faith. That was precisely what was and is going on -- placing the crux of unity on some other factor besides common profession of faith. That's called false irenicism, which Vatican II plainly spoke against as supremely "foreign to the spirit of ecumenism". I don't think there is suspicion here that Card. Dolan us purposely hiding more specifically Catholic doctrines to achieve a false peace. Furthermore, It doesn't hurt on the road to true unity agreeing to be friendly with one another on issues you have in common. That just seems smart to me, and a win-win. I see no virtue is being a unreasonable.

The "road to unity" is the return of souls outside the Church to the unity inside the Church (you speak as if unity is some fuzzy concept not yet realized). Somewhere along the way, ya gotta tell em rather than making them feel comfortable where there at, which is the path straight to hell.

The Church's job isn't "world peace" or "building a more tolerant society"...it's job is saving souls. That is something lost apparently on Cardinal Dolan and many, many others these days.

And V2 documents recommend exactly the actions condemned by Pius XI. So any phrase therein that supposedly differentiates it from what Pius XI condemns just demonstrates the.ambiguous nature of the flawed documents themselves.

Kind of like how the document on the liturgy says nothing shall be changed unless it genuinely and certainly requires it....then proceeded to command a rewrite of every Sacrament and then some. V2 is schizophrenic.
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#27
(06-21-2013, 03:07 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: It may be true that Muslims face an analogous challenge that Catholics did, of trying to assimilate while keep their faith, but we should hope that they do lose their "faith" and instead find faith in the true Word incarnate.

CCC 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"43

(of course, it is better to believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him than to be an atheist, since the former is the first step to coming to true faith).

My question is which God? Do Muslims really pray to the true God of Christians?
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#28
(06-21-2013, 07:52 PM)DustinsDad Wrote: The "road to unity" is the return of souls outside the Church to the unity inside the Church (you speak as if unity is some fuzzy concept not yet realized). Somewhere along the way, ya gotta tell em rather than making them feel comfortable where there at, which is the path straight to hell.

The unity of the Church in her nature as establish as a perfect society is true, and professed in our Creed. It is just as true that Christians, that is those who profess Christ as Messiah and Savior, are not united. And as this forum attests, even those in the Church who profess the Catholic Faith are not unified in many ways about core doctrines like filial submission to the Chair of Peter, teachings of universal Councils, and acceptance of authoritative decisions. Unity is very clearly laid out. This is not made fuzzy by admitting that there is disunity amongst us. And, really, that's part of the extension of Christ's Kingdom, part of the Church on earth achieving visible universality. It is part of our working out of salvation -- learning how to be true disciples of Christ. Unity is a problem which starts with each of us.

(06-21-2013, 07:52 PM)DustinsDad Wrote: The Church's job isn't "world peace" or "building a more tolerant society"...it's job is saving souls. That is something lost apparently on Cardinal Dolan and many, many others these days.

The end is saving souls. The means involves being peacemakers and tolerant. And as I mentioned before, it is better not in spite of best. The peace and tolerance of a pluralist society in agreement on some aspects of the true, the good, and the beautiful, is not the same as a society of fervent Catholics dwelling in peace as brothers. But the former is not in spite of the latter. You seem to think it is, but don't show us how. Nor do you show us in our concrete circumstances how such a "job" is done. Yours seems lofty theory from a convenient place, instead of having an real-world application.

(06-21-2013, 07:52 PM)DustinsDad Wrote: Kind of like how the document on the liturgy says nothing shall be changed unless it genuinely and certainly requires it....then proceeded to command a rewrite of every Sacrament and then some. V2 is schizophrenic.

You seem to forget who judges what is genuinely and certainly required. We belong to a religion in which such judgements are made by the Pope, the man put in that place by Jesus to make just such a decision. Your gripe seems to be with how Christ set up His Church.
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#29
http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/201...sings.html

Cardinal Dolan: Church closings are possible in Staten Island (photos)

Prior to presiding at a joyous Father's Day debt-burning ceremony at St. Ann's R.C. Church in Dongan Hills, Cardinal Timothy Dolan had some bad news for ailing parishes as he acknowledged that church closings are on the table as part of the Archdiocese of New York's, "Making All Things New," initiative.

The cardinal's final decisions are expected to be implemented on Jan. 1, 2015. A letter from the cardinal that was read at weekend masses at parishes throughout Staten Island confirmed what was previously reported in the Advance, that the parishes of St. Joseph's and St. Mary's in Rosebank and Immaculate Conception in Stapleton will be headed by one pastor as a prelude to the parish restructuring program.

While the three parishes will operate independently and no mention was made of shuttering any of them, the cardinal indicated that they will be working together to determine their future viability.

The cardinal made it clear in his blog and last week's Catholic New York that he thinks there are too many parishes and that he wants to trim the $48 million that the archdiocese spends each year to operate its churches and schools. The archdiocese already has shuttered some parish schools -- including those at St. Joseph's, St. Mary's, and Immaculate Conception -- in its move to a regional education system.
   
"We have too many parishes" the cardinal stated in Catholic New York. "We no longer need 385 parishes."
   
He further explained the archdiocese's financial predicament, saying in Catholic New York: "We devote a lopsided amount of money to maintain parishes and buildings we no longer need. Simply put, we can no longer put out $48 million a year to keep on life support parishes, buildings and schools we no longer need."

When asked by an Advance reporter if churches would be shuttered, the cardinal said that Making All Things New would look at a "whole menu of opportunities" including, but not limited to, "merging, consolidating and even, on rare occasions, closing" parishes. The most "dramatic shifts" he said will be in Manhattan, which has an excess of parishes for its population of Roman Catholics, and the Bronx.

The cardinal stressed, though, that the initiative would look at all sorts of options such as churches sharing resources and staff with perhaps priests, deacons or youth ministers serving more than one parish.

The archdiocese also will consider building churches in areas where congregations are growing and thriving, but that's unlikely on Staten Island, where there cardinal said there already are "enough parishes."

Intensive Making All Things New meetings at parishes will begin in September and participants will look not only at facilities but at Roman Catholic demographic trends and sacramental records. If a parish has more funerals than baptisms, it may be time for a change, the cardinal said.

In the letter read at the weekend masses, the cardinal verified what already was previously revealed in the Advance, that the Rev. Victor Buebendorf will be serving as pastor of St. Mary's, St. Joseph's and Immaculate Conception. The Rev. Peter Byrne, currently the pastor of Immaculate Conception, will be the new pastor at St. Elizabeth's R.C. Church in Manhattan, and Rev. Michael Martine, now pastor of St. Joseph's, will be replacing the Rev. Robert Aufieri as pastor at Holy Rosary R.C. Church.

"I am pleased to announce that your three communities of faith ... Saint Mary's, Immaculate Conception and Saint Joseph's ... will be asked to work together to plan for the future in this part of the archdiocese and how best to provide for the pastoral care of our people," the cardinal said in his letter. "We need your input and ideas."

Cardinal Dolan laid out details of his plan to priests and other religious at a session on June 6 at St. Joseph's Seminary and the co-vicars of Staten Island, Monsignors James Dorney and Peter Finn, are in a photo of the event printed in last week's Catholic New York.

Making All Things New is headed by the Rev. John O'Hara, former pastor of St. Teresa's R.C. Church in Castleton Corners, who is director of the Strategic Pastoral Planning Office for the Archdiocese. He spoke at the gathering on June 6 along with John Reid and Maureen Gallagher of the Reid Group, which has assisted in Cardinal Dolan's former diocese, Milwaukee, Wis., and also the dioceses of Newark.

Cardinal Dolan introduced Making All Things New to his flock of 2.6 million in a 2010 letter printed in Catholic New York. Parishes subsequently were visited, a survey was conducted and other preliminary work was done.

On Sunday night, the cardinal officiated at a standing-room only mass and debt-burning celebration at St. Ann's. The parish under the leadership of the Rev. Joy Mampilly, retired more than $600,000 in debt in less than three years despite tough economic times and parishioners struggling with personal losses from Hurricane Sandy.
   
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#30
Religious pluralism IS the law of the land in the USA and Cardinal Dolan is just a product of that. That he is a prince of the church is scary but it is what it is. It is undeniable that largely since Vatican II the common opinion is that "all roads lead to Heaven"--even atheism add long as the atheist in question follows his heart. Sad but true. All I can say is to keep your faith as best you can and pray especially for the sick and the dying, many who are outside the church and thus on the edge of hell. At the very least keep the faith alive in your own heart even though it can be extremely difficult when it seems thst everyone--most especially the princes of the church--are preaching a false gospel of anonymous christianity and that all roads lead to heaven.
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