Modesty
#51
Nudity is not intrinsically evil, but it has its proper place.  Outside of that place, meaning inordinate nudity, it is immodest. 

The Lactation of St. Bernard is a rendered image with an underlying teaching for viewers to glean.  It is symbolic of a private religious event.  Women walking about in public with their breasts bared is symbolic of nothing healthy, it is indecent (opposed to Christian custom) and immodest (opposed to the virtue of modesty).

I know that merely seeing a nude person doesn't cause everyone to burst into flames of lust.  That isn't the point, however.  The point here is that too many children and youths have lost innocence due to the immodesty of others (yes, even parents who are in-home nudists afflict their children) and have also lost the well-placed shame in their loss of control over passions due to Adam's original sin.
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#52
(07-12-2013, 05:32 PM)yablabo Wrote: You give an example of AN offence against modesty.  Modesty relates to more than merely the covering or baring of the human body, however.  If you read the works of the fathers like Gregory of Nyssa, Tertullian, Ambrose, etc., you will see that they very often instruct that offences against modesty are very great in number, and not all are related to the degree of coverage of a person in public.  Some of these offences are due to speaking when one ought not, traveling where one ought not, or giving another person the wrong impression about one's self, etc.  Modesty the virtue is a species of temperance, which regulates all goods back to conformity with divine revelation and right reason.

It is not modest, objectively speaking, for a Ju'hoansi woman in the Kalahari to go around bare-breasted in public, just as it is not modest for a woman in San Francisco, CA to go around bare-breasted in public.  This is not because her breasts are evil or disgusting.  This is because Adam's prevarication weakened all his progeny, afflicting them with concupiscence.  It's true that nudity does not equal the marital embrace, however, fallen man is compelled by his disordered desires to sin by what he sees, hears, smells, tastes and touches.  It is not modest to bare one's self in such a way that it dishonors a brother, as St. Paul reminds us, we are to clothe that with lesser honor with greater honor.

I am very much aware that modesty encompasses more than the example I gave but the one I gave is where the most common hangup is. The modesty I see you describing though sounds quite subjective and based on the culture. In the deep desert of Afghanistan a woman showing her face would be considered "immodest" but a woman doing that in the US would not. The question remains where you draw the line. In the ancient Biblical world women DID breastfeed in public for instance. (http://mamapsalmist.com/2011/10/30/lets-...the-bible/) Heck they even bathed in public view. Remember the incident with King David and Uriah's wife? Maybe not the best example but I'm sure many more women bathed nude that did not end up in lust. The bottom line is lust is going to happen no matter what you do. There are plenty of brothels in the Middle East despite all the "modest" there. Original sin makes it necessary for us to learn how to look at the human body with appreciation. Prior to original sin we did not have to learn such. Of coarse we could choose not to learn and remain ignorant.

To me, if you are using the image of God (man is made in God's image) to amass power, influence, and/or pleasure then you transgress modesty. A woman who shows her flesh to get attention or to feel better about herself is immodest. Same with a man who does this. If a guy walks around flashing his muscles and expects praise for them then he is transgressing modesty. This definition is not subject to culture. Hubris is hubris no matter where you go. It is the state of heart that matters.

(07-12-2013, 07:48 PM)yablabo Wrote: Nudity is not intrinsically evil, but it has its proper place.  Outside of that place, meaning inordinate nudity, it is immodest. 

The Lactation of St. Bernard is a rendered image with an underlying teaching for viewers to glean.  It is symbolic of a private religious event.  Women walking about in public with their breasts bared is symbolic of nothing healthy, it is indecent (opposed to Christian custom) and immodest (opposed to the virtue of modesty).

I know that merely seeing a nude person doesn't cause everyone to burst into flames of lust.  That isn't the point, however.  The point here is that too many children and youths have lost innocence due to the immodesty of others (yes, even parents who are in-home nudists afflict their children) and have also lost the well-placed shame in their loss of control over passions due to Adam's original sin.

Children and youths loose innocence for more reasons than naked flesh. The problem with your interpretation is that male doctors should not work on female patients and vice versa. Also you would have to consider is the person working on you is afflicted with same-sex attraction. Do you think a man or woman with same-sex attraction in the locker room would be an issue? You would technically be offending them since they could be attracted to you. What causes a person to loose innocence if not the "feeling of flames?" I respect your viewpoint but as I understand it I see too many holes in the reasoning.
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#53
(07-10-2013, 05:25 PM)AstroKitty Wrote:
(07-10-2013, 03:09 PM)teos85 Wrote:



Northern Europeans treat Italy as if it was their own personal sinfilled vacationland where anything goes! Deo Gratias that there are beaches I can visit where I don't have to see a huge, 60 year old German in a speedo. 
EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!! :O
[/quote]

Dem Germans love themselves some Speedos!

What about women beach volleyball outfits? ....they are a little skimpy and you can't tell me they help the gameplay.
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#54
1. Medical personnel: to say that viewing naked patients puts them in a near occasion of sin is patently absurd--no more so than entering into a seminary or becoming a teacher. The medical profession is a calling. The majority of people who work in this industry are too overworked, tired and worried about being sued to be "turned on." I stand by what I said: the few depraved won't last long in the profession before they are reported to authorities.

2. One's personal standard of modesty is always subjective and necessarily so. The ultimate standard of earthly modesty comes from the purist humans who ever existed: Jesus and Mary. Once one begins raising hemlines of the robes, opening necklines, exposing the head, shortening sleeve lengths, and taking away fabric, it becomes relatively less and less modest than before. Whether that is acceptable or unacceptable to society depends on the time and place. In Jesus' and Mary's time, the example of the bathing suit with a swim skirt and leggings would have been intolerable because everyone can see the woman's shape. Muslims today believe such a suit is immodest. So if you think you're more modest than a woman in a one piece solid maillot, you are relative to her. But to a Muslim or Amish woman, you are *not* modest.

3.I think there is a relationship between modesty and letting go of earthly things to foster closeness to God. If a lay person chooses in free will to adopt clothing similar to consecrated religious persons, that is a type of self-mortification that no doubt will profit the soul in eternal life. It follows that such a person may eschew makeup and perfume, throw out all rock music and anything that isn't classical, avoid TV and entertainment, avoid books that aren't religious, eschew rich meals, stop spending beyond essentials, etc.

4.No, I'm not going to post the statue I saw on La Salette's hill. I saw what I saw. I remember being surprised to see the crown of flowers on Mary's head with her hair showing and not all covered up by fabric. Our tour guide even pointed this out. The figure was hunched over with both hands on the face and crying. It wasn't standing and pointing. I don't need pictures on the internet to determine what is real when I saw it myself. That is the limitation of relying solely on the internet vs. going there and seeing it in person.
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#55
(07-20-2013, 12:35 PM)lauermar Wrote: 1. Medical personnel: to say that viewing naked patients puts them in an occasion of sin is patently absurd. It is no more an occasion of sin than entering into a seminary. The medical profession is a calling. The majority of people who work in this industry are too overworked, tired and worried about being sued to be "turned on." I stand by what I said: the few depraved won't last long in the profession before they are reported to authorities.

I'd say most medical professionals don't view it as a calling, but those who do are usually better than those who don't.  as someone who has interacted with many many medical professionals, you can easily recognize those who do view it as a calling from those who see it as a steady paycheck. 

I was brutally raped on a hospital unit by one of the staff and apparently he had worked there for 5 years.  He was terminated and is serving an all too brief prison sentence.  HOpefully he won't be allowed to work in the medical field again when he gets out, but I'm not sure.  All I will say is I think it was a different kind of depravity.  I don't think it was about being attracted to my body but about the fact that I was there and couldn't fight back.  that is not normal sexual desire.
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#56
(07-20-2013, 12:35 PM)lauermar Wrote: 4.No, I'm not going to post the statue I saw on La Salette's hill. I saw what I saw. I remember being surprised to see the crown of flowers on Mary's head with her hair showing and not all covered up by fabric. Our tour guide even pointed this out. The figure was hunched over with both hands on the face and crying. It wasn't standing and pointing. I don't need pictures on the internet to determine what is real when I saw it myself. That is the limitation of relying solely on the internet vs. going there and seeing it in person.

Apparently your generosity is coming through here.
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#57
To supplement my generosity, I share with you a Catholic motivational speaker who had been on America's Top Model and an international model. She converted back to her faith. She's now working on a Master's degree in Theology at Ave Maria. She speaks at Catholic retreats worldwide, and is an apologist at CA. Modesty is about the spirit; it is *not* about measuring collars and hem lengths by inches. Listen and learn:

http://www.catholic.com/node/5330/7332
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#58
(08-07-2013, 08:51 AM)lauermar Wrote: To supplement my generosity, I share with you a Catholic motivational speaker who had been on America's Top Model and an international model. She converted back to her faith. She's now working on a Master's degree in Theology at Ave Maria. She speaks at Catholic retreats worldwide, and is an apologist at CA. Modesty is about the spirit; it is *not* about measuring collars and hem lengths by inches. Listen and learn:

http://www.catholic.com/node/5330/7332

did she make restitution of all the money she made as a top model if she thinks it was wrong?
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#59
(08-07-2013, 08:51 AM)lauermar Wrote: Modesty is about the spirit; it is *not* about measuring collars and hem lengths by inches. Listen and learn.

It's not either/or it's both and. If you claim to be modest while dressing like the world you're fooling yourself. If you're dressing modestly but with worldly thoughts regarding lust and attention you're also fooling yourself.

You don't have to be measuring your every inch of clothing, but use your Catholic Common Sense and always err on the side of caution if you are unsure.
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#60
is it immodest of me to put out my recycling at 6 a.m. in a t-shirt and gym shorts?
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