Antichrist
#1
I found this on youtube fiddling around. It's two of Fr. Gruner's radio broadcasts sewn together. It feature Fr. Kramer and Fr. O'Connor. It's some years ago, I can tell by their voices. In here is a mention of Liccio Gelli the Leader of Propaganda due, the Italian Masonig Lodge. In it he speaks of Gelli's arrest and the taking of his documents and giving copies to Pope John Paul II. That's very interesting.



tim
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#2
It is unfathomable to think that we had all the warnings from the popes, and the visions from the saints and mystics of the church, and not have had the sense to heed and be awake, that educated and prudent men can find themselves held hostage to the diabolical within the institution of man's salvation. Yet here we are, we see the state of our church, no longer a relevant voice with the world, the flock in disarray, our shepards the subject of persecution for the perversions of infiltrators. All has come to pass as it has been predicted. How bad will it get (and how bad will everyday life be) before the pope realizes that pronouncing the consecration of Russia is the only alternative?
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#3
No longer a relevant voice with the world? Not even close.
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#4
I believe Nero was the antichrist. I simply can't believe we have to wait for someone more evil than Hitler or Stalin to come along at the end of time. Life is hard enough.
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#5
SCG, why do I think you'll have no problem recognizing him when he arrives ? But, I don't think we are in the near run up to the Antichrist. What we are near has been called by some of the Fathers that wrote about it is the minor chastisement. No one knows about the Antichrist's time not those that think it's Nero or in a future possessed person.

tim
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#6
I came back to add this. Many want to add all manner of Catholic seer's prophecy to the minor chastisement so it fits their personal favorite scenario. It has gotten the the point where it's the Catholic "left behind" story. My perspective is the words Our Lady used to explain the "vision" which was revealed to the world, have never been revealed as asked by 1960.

Cardinal Bertone gave us some of the best evidence when he showed the two envelopes on Porta a Porta, Italian RAI  television network.
The thing to me is, does anyone think a single piece of paper in an envelope can contain the entire scenario this has turned into ? I don't think so. I'd bet it's no more than two or three paragraphs describing the vision similar to how she explained the vision of hell to the children.

tim
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#7
Nic here would write about this. He actually convinced me of the preterist position, which is the minority position historically. Revelation makes almost no sense otherwise. Plus it makes us become someone like Fr. Gruner or Fr. Kramer -- always predicting things, always reading the narrative into things, always changing the date, and always ignoring that things don't pan out. Also decisions are made based on this narrative, so often they are more willing to rebel against Rome because these are the end times, and Rome will become the seat of the antichrist -- a statement from Luther that has become a traditional Catholic position (see: http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...034.0.html). "Soon we'll be vindicated!" Fr. Gruner's had how many programs that this was "the last chance" and "the final warning" and such like? I have respect for him, but the third time or so he came to my church to preach, I didn't go, because he has nothing new to say. Hear him once, and you got it. I never really thought we were in the end times, but I took it quite seriously. Fr. Kramer said in 05 that we were on the brink. And granted he said that we couldn't set our watches, but he predicted in 08 the rise of the antichrist, and by 2013 the triumph of the Immaculate Heart. I bought food, and read the tea leaves for the signs. In lockstep with this is the belief that Russia has not been consecrated and that the Popes and the Vatican have lied to us. In fact, it usually is in with the conspiracy theory crowd. I about dropped my jaw when I heard Fr Kramer call into to Alex Jones, and basically commend Alex on saying what needs to be said. And Bishop Williamson is certainly in the same group, being a major devotee of conspiracy theory. It seems to be one of the traits of traditional Catholics, or at least a major subgroup. While I can't say all of this is not worthy of investigation -- I mean Snowden certainly raised a few eye-brows -- I urge everyone to reject any messages about the antichrist which would cause them to alter the Catholic Faith and practice one iota. And this means mostly linking up with groups which practice, promote, and/or foster separation (de facto or de jure) from the Viacr of Christ, the rejection of rites of sacraments, or rejection of the Vatican Council.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism

Book Nic recommended which explains some preterism:

Rapture: The End-Times Error That Leaves the Bible Behind, by David B. Currie
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#8
I agree some but not about Nic. He is a very good apologist for preterism. I've never seen Fr. Gruner except on video, and I agree once you've heard the message, there' no real need to keep going over it.  And I agree Fr. Kramer keeps digging and says too much especially dates certain. In fact I saw a video where he said exactly as you said and I thought that is pretty goofy calling the date. 

On the other hand nothing contained in the vision as described has happened and it has nothing to do with Bl. Pope John Paul II being shot by a lone gunman.

tim
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#9
(07-15-2013, 04:49 PM)Tim Wrote: On the other hand nothing contained in the vision as described has happened and it has nothing to do with Bl. Pope John Paul II being shot by a lone gunman.

I would only say be open to the idea that vision and prophecy are not fate. If it were fate, then what becomes of our free will to change our way? The idea that JPII fulfills the vision is a belief of JPII, just as John XXIII believed he was called to call a council. That is not dogma. It can well be that the vision is completely null and void, never to be fulfilled as seen because of circumstances which replaced the conditions which would lead to the envisioned event. Be that as it may, we can never see visions as fate which must happen as seen. That's a big problem with the Gruner-style Fatamists. They must see things in one way and one way only. JPII was not on a hill with a cross with soldiers. Russia has not had a miraculous conversion similar to Mexico in the early 1500s. If you have you preconceived notion on top of it, then it often clouds your understand of whether 1984 was true or not, even against the testimonies of those involved, like Sister Lucia. And then new theories are devised to explain away the quotes from her, not to mention there is no mandate in any vision to reject the Council and the New Mass. Oh, but it may be in the secret still hidden. The vision was a warning of what would have come, and it did not come. I believe 1984 did, especially since Sister Lucia said so, living another 20 years with the New Mass, speaking with Jesus and Mary, and not fleeing her convent to become part of the SSPX or a roving preacher with Fr. Gruner. What now? Conversion. The application of the graces comes when we live the message -- penance, prayer for the Pope, evangelization of our neighbor, devotion to our Lord in the Sacrament, devotion to our Lady's Immaculate Heart. Some will hold out and say 2017. Then 2017 will come, and then maybe 2018, or 2026, or ... It begins to look like those Adventists in the 1800s. Our Lady of Good Success said there will be a great restoration, and I believe we are already in the nascent period. Standing around living as though we're on the down-slope instead of the up-slope may hinder the spreading of this grace. Of course the world is in turmoil, and the Church is in turmoil. Sin has not gone from us. But there is great grace now to transform ourselves, our societies, and renew the face of the earth. See the nascent signs. Standing and looking up to the sky for signs of the antichrist or fire from heaven will fulfill what John Lennon said, "Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans." Don't miss Life!
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#10
(07-16-2013, 09:46 AM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(07-15-2013, 04:49 PM)Tim Wrote: On the other hand nothing contained in the vision as described has happened and it has nothing to do with Bl. Pope John Paul II being shot by a lone gunman.

I would only say be open to the idea that vision and prophecy are not fate. If it were fate, then what becomes of our free will to change our way? The idea that JPII fulfills the vision is a belief of JPII, just as John XXIII believed he was called to call a council. That is not dogma. It can well be that the vision is completely null and void, never to be fulfilled as seen because of circumstances which replaced the conditions which would lead to the envisioned event. Be that as it may, we can never see visions as fate which must happen as seen. That's a big problem with the Gruner-style Fatamists. They must see things in one way and one way only. JPII was not on a hill with a cross with soldiers. Russia has not had a miraculous conversion similar to Mexico in the early 1500s. If you have you preconceived notion on top of it, then it often clouds your understand of whether 1984 was true or not, even against the testimonies of those involved, like Sister Lucia. And then new theories are devised to explain away the quotes from her, not to mention there is no mandate in any vision to reject the Council and the New Mass. Oh, but it may be in the secret still hidden. The vision was a warning of what would have come, and it did not come. I believe 1984 did, especially since Sister Lucia said so, living another 20 years with the New Mass, speaking with Jesus and Mary, and not fleeing her convent to become part of the SSPX or a roving preacher with Fr. Gruner. What now? Conversion. The application of the graces comes when we live the message -- penance, prayer for the Pope, evangelization of our neighbor, devotion to our Lord in the Sacrament, devotion to our Lady's Immaculate Heart. Some will hold out and say 2017. Then 2017 will come, and then maybe 2018, or 2026, or ... It begins to look like those Adventists in the 1800s. Our Lady of Good Success said there will be a great restoration, and I believe we are already in the nascent period. Standing around living as though we're on the down-slope instead of the up-slope may hinder the spreading of this grace. Of course the world is in turmoil, and the Church is in turmoil. Sin has not gone from us. But there is great grace now to transform ourselves, our societies, and renew the face of the earth. See the nascent signs. Standing and looking up to the sky for signs of the antichrist or fire from heaven will fulfill what John Lennon said, "Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans." Don't miss Life!

You've described what I see. I'm toying with the idea that perhaps one of the Consecrations done by Bl. Pope John Paul II, not exactly as asked, but the best he could get at the time, was accepted in the same way, and we will see Russia converted over a long period of time, and we will have to work out our own peace. Conversely I think if any Pope were to try and do it exactly as asked, it's the current Pope Francis. Putin appears to be no saint, but he also among the leaders, will not go along with the depravity, and in bit by bit, he curtails them. This is something compared to the days of Kruschev I remember vividly. But, I'm still saying my rosary in case I'm becoming myopic. At 2017, I'll be pretty old, but maybe I'll be here.

tim 
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