Pope Francis on gays: "Who am I to judge?"
#51
(07-29-2013, 07:36 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(07-29-2013, 07:22 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(07-29-2013, 06:46 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(07-29-2013, 05:19 PM)2Vermont Wrote: Anyone else just plain tired of trying to figure out what the Cardinal meant, what the Pope meant, what Vatican II meant?

Seriously.

This is ridiculous.

Will the real Catholic Church please stand up?

It is not that hard to figure out that the media virtually always spins anything that the Pope says to support a particular agenda.  Ignore the headlines and the spin and read his exact words with as much context as possible.  There was not anything wrong with what he actually said and it was not that hard to figure it out.

Its also not hard to figure out that every little thing you say and do will be put under a microscope by the entire world and thus, have a bit of care how you present things and the actions that you take. 

It is easier said than done. As a prominent poster on this forum, I sometimes come under scrutiny of people on other forums that are hostile to us.  I know that I am being watched and I try to be clear,  but I still see positions attributed to me that I do not actually take.  There is very little that one can do when people are determined to see evil.

I agree it isn't easy.  But the solution, at least in a large part, is to put your ideas in writing, get them vetted by someone who has experience at that level, stop going off script, etc.  His Holiness does not seem inclined to do any of those things at this point. 
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#52
Just keep in the back of your mind all those gay priests who raped altar boys for the sake of their gay pleasure. Only gay priests look at boys, and as we have seen in the news, all to many times. The sexual abuse scandal. Catholics have left in droves over gay priests and their lust for pleasure. If you think they will always remain celibate think again!. Human nature!. But as you said Holy Father. "Who am I to judge"!. So Holy Father go ahead with the distorted and mind boggling wisdom of secular society, it's ok to be gay. You need to minister to them first by keeping them out of the priesthood!. 
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#53
(07-29-2013, 05:38 PM)romanaround Wrote: Gez, he's starting to sound like the owner of this forum (I kid Vox! lol).

Seriously, here are his actual words:

"There is so much being written about the gay lobby. I haven’t met anyone in the Vatican yet who has “gay” written on their identity cards. There is a distinction between being gay, being this way inclined and lobbying. Lobbies are not good. If a gay person is in eager search of God, who am I to judge them? The Catholic Church teaches that gay people should not be discriminated against; they should be made to feel welcome. Being gay is not the problem, lobbying is the problem and this goes for any type of lobby, business lobbies, political lobbies and Masonic lobbies.”"

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the...31//pag/4/

The "judge not" phrase is so heavily loaded in today's society. But it obviously doesn't mean we can't judge a person's actions (he judges those who lobby for gay rights as problematic in the very same paragraph).

We have to distinguish being gay and acting on it (in this case promoting it). If someone is gay and searching for God, it is not up to us to pass judgment on their souls.

Sounds like someone nailed it. The Holy Father can't judge individual souls other than recognizing miracles and affirming that so-and-so is in Heaven and would be a good role model for us Catholics. He can't even say that Hitler is in Hell. His "who am I to judge?" is about souls, not acts. There are big differences between being gay, being actively gay, being gay and not wanting to act on it but failing once in a while, being actively gay and monogamous, being actively gay and being a bathhouse hanger-outer, being gay and undermining the Church, being gay and trying to change the definition of marriage, etc. 
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#54
(07-29-2013, 06:53 PM)2Vermont Wrote:
(07-29-2013, 06:46 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(07-29-2013, 05:19 PM)2Vermont Wrote: Anyone else just plain tired of trying to figure out what the Cardinal meant, what the Pope meant, what Vatican II meant?

Seriously.

This is ridiculous.

Will the real Catholic Church please stand up?

It is not that hard to figure out that the media virtually always spins anything that the Pope says to support a particular agenda.  Ignore the headlines and the spin and read his exact words with as much context as possible.  There was not anything wrong with what he actually said and it was not that hard to figure it out.

I would love to be able to blame it all on the media every single time, but it's getting old.  Many times his words are vague at best without the help of the media. 


The only thing ridiculous is Catholics taking the media seriously, especially seriously enough to let them endanger their faith.  No matter what the Pope says, the media will twist it. He could come out on his balcony tomorrow and say "Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life" and the media will have the headline: "Pope: Jews Going to Hell!", with a column going on about how "anti-semitic' he is. He could say, "I've personally gathered 8 tons of rice to send to the poor in Africa" and the media would come up with, "No Beef for Africans: 'Let Them Eat Rice!' Says Pope." They've been doing this crap to us for eons now. Better get used to it or stop reading newspapers. magazines, and websites owned by The Powers That Be.

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#55
(07-30-2013, 12:58 AM)bkovacs Wrote: Just keep in the back of your mind all those gay priests who raped altar boys for the sake of their gay pleasure. Only gay priests look at boys, and as we have seen in the news, all to many times. The sexual abuse scandal. Catholics have left in droves over gay priests and their lust for pleasure. If you think they will always remain celibate think again!. Human nature!. But as you said Holy Father. "Who am I to judge"!. So Holy Father go ahead with the distorted and mind boggling wisdom of secular society, it's ok to be gay. You need to minister to them first by keeping them out of the priesthood!. 

He never said it's OK to be gay. He'd undoubtedly tell you that homsexuality is a disorder and that homosexuals need to be treated with compassion, just like the Catechism says.

Second of all, there were very few priests who "raped altar boys." Most of the priests were gay priests who had had sex with teenaged boys. And don't think that that whole thing wasn't blown vastly out of proportion. The media hate us. See http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-215_162-1933687.html:


Has Media Ignored Sex Abuse In School?
This column was written by Tom Hoopes.


John Karr isn't a priest. He's a teacher.

Most teachers are dedicated, hard-working people who wouldn't dream of hurting a child. The same is true of priests.

If the suspect in the 1996 murder of JonBenet Ramsey were a priest, there would be a fresh outcry about a decades-long cover-up in the Catholic Church. Commentators from Left and Right would rightly unite in decrying the crisis and the entrenched complacency that led to it. Catholic pundits would take a special relish in pointing out that they agree: The Church had better get its act together.

Any institution that has allowed children to be harmed by predators deserves to be taken to task for it. No institution should get a pass. And no profession should get a pass. Not preachers, not priests — not even teachers.

Especially not teachers. And yet …

Consider the statistics: In accordance with a requirement of President Bush's No Child Left Behind Act, in 2002 the Department of Education carried out a study of sexual abuse in the school system.

Hofstra University researcher Charol Shakeshaft looked into the problem, and the first thing that came to her mind when Education Week reported on the study were the daily headlines about the Catholic Church.

"[T]hink the Catholic Church has a problem?" she said. "The physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests."


So, in order to better protect children, did media outlets start hounding the worse menace of the school systems, with headlines about a "Nationwide Teacher Molestation Cover-up" and by asking "Are Ed Schools Producing Pedophiles?"

No, they didn't. That treatment was reserved for the Catholic Church, while the greater problem in the schools was ignored altogether.

As the National Catholic Register's reporter Wayne Laugesen points out, the federal report said 422,000 California public-school students would be victims before graduation — a number that dwarfs the state's entire Catholic-school enrollment of 143,000.

Yet, during the first half of 2002, the 61 largest newspapers in California ran nearly 2,000 stories about sexual abuse in Catholic institutions, mostly concerning past allegations. During the same period, those newspapers ran four stories about the federal government's discovery of the much larger — and ongoing — abuse scandal in public schools.


Perhaps John Karr will help change that.

"Could JonBenet Ramsey murder suspect John Mark Karr get a job teaching in your community?" asked USA Today. Not any more, of course; but could a creepy pedophile who isn't all over Fox News get hired? Richard Dangel, a child psychologist in Dallas, told the paper, "Only about 4% of offenders get busted," he says. "The other 96% don't." Which means that background checks won't stop the vast majority of sex offenders.

A writer for The New York Times lurked online at pedophile chat rooms, and reported this summer about the chilling way pedophiles convince themselves that children want to have sex with them and insinuate themselves into the lives of children.

The Times' Kurt Eichenwald explained that pedophiles often discuss their personal lives. They come from all walks of life, but they like to speak about how close their jobs take them to children. "The most frequent job mentioned, however, was schoolteacher," he wrote. "A number of self-described teachers shared detailed observations about children in their classes, including events they considered sexual, like a second-grade boy holding his crotch during class."

The media have left many with the impression that sexual abuse is a Catholic problem — as if Catholic beliefs and customs make sex abuse inevitable. Church teaching for its part is clear: Sexual abuse of minors is always wrong. A more likely culprit would be a non-religious ambivalence about the pedophilia, as seen, for instance, in the media's refusal to broaden its scope to include teachers when considering the issue.

Professor Michael Tracey, whose e-mail correspondence with Karr helped in identifying him as a suspect, identified the real problem in an interview with the National Catholic Register.

"Was JonBenet a pedophile's dream? Clearly, clearly she was," Tracey said. "Her death, and the whole circus surrounding it even 10 years later, has everything to do with the culture's desire to sexualize children."

In 1992, the National Victim Center estimated that 29 percent of all forcible rapes in America were against children under age 11. More than a decade later, an estimated 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 7 boys are victims of unwanted sexual acts.

The 2002 Department of Education report estimated that from 6 percent to 10 percent of all students in public schools would be victims of abuse before graduation — a staggering statistic.

Yet, outside the Catholic Church, the reaction is increasingly accommodation instead of outrage.

The April 17, 2002, issue of USA Today featured an article titled "Sex Between Adults and Children" — a euphemistic way of referring to child molestation. Under the headline was a ballot-like box suggesting possible opinions one might hold on the subject: "always harmful, usually harmful, sometimes harmful, rarely harmful." The newspaper's answer: "Child's age and maturity make for gray areas."

And what about the popular culture? Mary Eberstadt has written at length about "Pedophilia Chic" — from Calvin Klein underwear ads to mainstream defenses of the North American Man-Boy Love Association. Hollywood's heroic treatment of accused child molesters in "The People vs. Larry Flynt" and "Kinsey" — not to mention its Oscar for Roman Polanski — doesn't help.

It's good that this ugly problem in the Catholic Church is being investigated, exposed, and dealt with. Now let's expand the investigation. In the face of the evidence of a widespread epidemic of abuse fed by a new morality that winks at child molestation, why is the Church the only institution under the microscope?

Right now an important story stares the media in the face with the cold intensity of teacher John Karr's eyes. Will they cover it?

Tom Hoopes is executive editor of the National Catholic Register and, with his wife, April, is editorial director of Faith & Family magazine.

By Tom Hoopes
Reprinted with permission from National Review Online
National Review Online
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#56
(07-29-2013, 08:34 PM)Ursus Wrote:
(07-29-2013, 08:12 PM)dark lancer Wrote: I'm sure that if you asked the pope, he'd tell you that homosexual acts are still sinful.

For the sake of everyone someone indeed needs to ask these simple questions. Souls are going to be lost to doublespeak.

I don't see what he said as "doublespeak" at all. I see it as a reiteration of Catholic teaching that the media wants to spin in a certain way to get Catholics bent out of shape. It appears to be working.

Here's His Holiness on gay "marriage" without the media twisting things. This is a letter he wrote as Cardinal to the Carmelite Nuns of the Archdiocese of Buenos Airesin 2010:

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Quote: Dear Sisters,

I write this letter to each one of you in the four Monasteries of Buenos Aires. The Argentine people must face, in the next few weeks, a situation whose result may gravely harm the family. It is the bill on matrimony of persons of the same sex.

The identity of the family, and its survival, are in jeopardy here: father, mother, and children. The life of so many children who will be discriminated beforehand due to the lack of human maturity that God willed them to have with a father and a mother is in jeopardy. A clear rejection of the law of God, engraved in our hearts, is in jeopardy.

I recall words of Saint Thérèse when she speaks of the infirmity of her childhood. She says that the envy of the Devil tried to extort her family after her older sister joined the Carmel. Here, the envy of the Devil, through which sin entered the world, is also present, and deceitfully intends to destroy the image of God: man and woman, who receive the mandate to grow, multiply, and conquer the earth. Let us not be naive: it is not a simple political struggle; it is an intention [which is] destructive of the plan of God. It is not a mere legislative project (this is a mere instrument), but rather a "move" of the father of lies who wishes to confuse and deceive the children of God.

Jesus tells us that, in order to defend us from this lying accuser, he will send us the Spirit of Truth. Today, the Nation [patria], before this situation, needs the special assistance of the Holy Ghost that may place the light of Truth amid the shadows of error; it needs this Advocate who may defend us from the enchantment of so many sophisms with which this bill is being justified, and which confuse and deceive even people of good will.

That is why I turn to you and ask from you prayer and sacrifice, the two invincible weapons which Saint Thérèse confessed to have. Cry out to the Lord that he may send his Spirit to the Senators who are to place their votes. That they may not do it moved by error or by circumstantial matters, but rather according to what the natural law and the law of God tell them. Pray for them, for their families; that the Lord may visit, strengthen, and console them. Pray that they may do great good for the Nation.

This bill will be discussed in the Senate after July 13. Let us look towards Saint Joseph, to Mary, the Child, and let us ask with fervor that they will defend the Argentine family in this moment. Let us recall what God himself told his people in a time of great anguish: "this war is not yours, but God's". That they may succour, defend, and accompany us in this war of God.

Thank you for what you will do in this struggle for the Nation. And, please, I beg you, pray for me also. May Jesus bless you, and may the Blessed Virgin protect you.

Affectionately,

Card. Jorge Mario Bergoglio s.j., Archbishop of Buenos Aires
[/html]




Here he is in his entry in Wikipedia, with references beneath:


[html]
Quote: He has affirmed church teaching on homosexuality, including that men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity and that every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. Though equating the pursuit of their equal rights as the devil’s work . He strongly opposed legislation introduced in 2010 by the Argentine Government to allow same-sex marriage, calling it a “real and dire anthropological throwback”. In a letter to the monasteries of Buenos Aires, he wrote:

“Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

He has also insisted that adoption by homosexuals is a form of discrimination against children. This position received a rebuke from Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who said the church’s tone was reminiscent of “medieval times and the Inquisition”

Wikipedia: Pope Francis . Catechism of the Catholic Church Paragraph 2358 ^ InfoBae.com ^ Padgett, Tim (18 July 2010). “The Vatican and Women: Casting the First Stone”. TIME. Retrieved 13 March 2013. ^ Goñi, Uki (July 15, 2010). “Defying Church, Argentina Legalizes Gay Marriage”. Retrieved March 13, 2013. ^ Allen, Jr., John L. (March 3, 2013). “Papabile of the Day: The Men Who Could Be Pope”. National Catholic Reporter. Retrieved March 13, 2013.
[/html]

I hope this eases any confusion for people.
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#57
(07-29-2013, 10:12 PM)Ursus Wrote:
(07-29-2013, 09:12 PM)dark lancer Wrote:
(07-29-2013, 08:34 PM)Ursus Wrote:
(07-29-2013, 08:12 PM)dark lancer Wrote: I'm sure that if you asked the pope, he'd tell you that homosexual acts are still sinful.

For the sake of everyone someone indeed needs to ask these simple questions. Souls are going to be lost to doublespeak.

CCC #2357, 2358, and 2359 already have the answer.


Exactly. Thank you for quoting canon, but makes the point. What simple catholic or non catholic is going to KNOW that when the pope himself is saying things in a way that sounds like its ok. Worse, the media plays it out of context. Even worse, people take it that the church has changed.

Don't blame His Holiness for that; blame the media. 

And to anyone reading this: the Pope CANNOT CHANGE ETERNAL CATHOLIC TEACHING. He can NOT do that. There is nothing to worry about except the lying media and Catholic who won't trust their Pope, who look for things to get hung about, who impugn his motives because some dumbass reporter can't think logically, etc. We're Catholics, guys; we're better than that.
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#58
Quote Vox Clamantis:
"Second of all, there were very few priests who "raped altar boys." Most of the priests were gay priests who had had sex with teenaged boys. And don't think that that whole thing wasn't blown vastly out of proportion. The media hate us. See http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-215_162-1933687.html:"

They were gay!. But Pope Francis says that we should not judge them. Secular society says we should give these gay priests equal rites. And allow them tho marry their gay teenage partners!. The ones they had sex (rape) with!. This world is truly distorted!. I'd rather live on Mars! 

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#59
Maybe our protestant Latin Rite Bishops should re-write two of the ten commandments.

"Honour thy father and thy mother"

21st century translation  "Honour thy father and thy father" or "Honour thy mother and thy mother" both equal.

"Thou shall not covet your neighbor's wife"

21st century translation "Thou shall not covet your neighbor's partner"
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#60
Vox Clamantis Wrote:No matter what the Pope says, the media will twist it. He could come out on his balcony tomorrow and say "Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life" and the media will have the headline: "Pope: Jews Going to Hell!", with a column going on about how "anti-semitic' he is. He could say, "I've personally gathered 8 tons of rice to send to the poor in Africa" and the media would come up with, "No Beef for Africans: 'Let Them Eat Rice!' Says Pope." They've been doing this crap to us for eons now.
:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Vox, that's one of the funniest things you've ever written.
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