how long did the roman empire tolerate homosexuality before it collapsed?
#1
For those historians who support the idea that public tolerance of homosexuality is the reason for the downfall of the empire, how long did that go on before the empire fell?  Does our society still have a while to go, or are we long overdue for God's wrath?
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#2
i am more interested in the causation.

is it because the men of rome simply wanted to be sexually submissive when they saw the visigoths come running down from the hills?
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#3
We're not overdue for Gods wrath I think. I believe we're currently experiencing it. The world hates Catholicism and we'll all be persecuted soon enough more than we already are. Catholics themselves hate Catholicism, just look at some of our clergy. And then we have sacrilegious Masses almost everywhere you go. No faithful Catholic can worship properly now unless they are extremely lucky. So yeah I think this is already the beginning or middle of wrath.
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#4
Romans were strange according to or morality. Homosexuality (our word) was condoned under certain conditions. They even had some ancient plants used for contraception. Where they drew the line was sacrificing babies to the gods. As a pal of mine who started in Quigley Seminary but quit and became a copper used to ask " do you know where Carthage was, and have you seen their ruins ?" he'd then roar with laughter and retort " No you don't because the Romans annihilated them" ! They hated child sacrifice so much they wiped them off the face of Africa.

Rome fell because the ever expanding empire through their wars of conquest could no longer bring enough money back to Rome for the hedonistic lifestyle of leisure of those citizens. This is exactly us right now. DC is a hedonistic cesspool of liberals that don't work but swim in money. Ask yourself this; have you ever heard of a right thinking person going to DC to get a job to become part of the hedonistic leisure class ? No !! It attracts duplicitous folks that believe they can get something for nothing. In short left wing cheaters, all.

Greece was and is another story. The Mohammedans are also another story.

tim
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#5
(08-01-2013, 08:44 AM)Tim Wrote: Rome fell because the ever expanding empire through their wars of conquest could no longer bring enough money back to Rome for the hedonistic lifestyle of leisure of those citizens.

thank you, that answers my question!

my intro to economics professor in college once told us something very profound that i will never forget.  he said, "there's no free lunch."  think about that.
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#6
Guacamole that answer is so good it fits most nations and empires. That has changed today is the Dynastic Families control the money supply. This was supposed to prevent world wars through all of the west trading with a common currency, namely the US dollar. This would allow them to use the US as the world's policeman and the US could put it on the credit card which would be payed by inflation. Then the derivatives  imploded. Hahaha God has a sense of Humor. Your Economics guy was insightful as that attitude is pervasive today in all jobs.

tim
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#7
(08-01-2013, 08:44 AM)Tim Wrote: Romans were strange according to or morality. Homosexuality (our word) was condoned under certain conditions. They even had some ancient plants used for contraception. Where they drew the line was sacrificing babies to the gods. As a pal of mine who started in Quigley Seminary but quit and became a copper used to ask " do you know where Carthage was, and have you seen their ruins ?" he'd then roar with laughter and retort " No you don't because the Romans annihilated them" ! They hated child sacrifice so much they wiped them off the face of Africa.

Rome fell because the ever expanding empire through their wars of conquest could no longer bring enough money back to Rome for the hedonistic lifestyle of leisure of those citizens. This is exactly us right now. DC is a hedonistic cesspool of liberals that don't work but swim in money. Ask yourself this; have you ever heard of a right thinking person going to DC to get a job to become part of the hedonistic leisure class ? No !! It attracts duplicitous folks that believe they can get something for nothing. In short left wing cheaters, all.

Greece was and is another story. The Mohammedans are also another story.

tim

      I agree with you completely. An old saying used to go something like this, but I don't remember exactly:    The way to corruption is  Alcohol (drugs), loose sexual relations, dancing, music, slothy wastefulness, & gluttony.

        Rome began to fall in Rome when the goal of  righteous living was replaced with self indulgence.  Instead of taking care of employees, corporations rob them of  their pensions, health insurance & just about everything else.  The goal of big corporations is just profit with no regards to humanity.

        The  problems so evident today are but  just  symptoms of  one deep problem, that problem being  an almost  total disregard of  God & His commandments.  It is very hard to be a morally just person in the social environs of the workplace & daily life.

        God has just withdrawn His Hand of Protection and allowed prideful and harden hearts to destroy themselves.  We are chastising ourselves, myself included.  I am no different than anyone else.

        The only way to combat the Luciferianism (a fancy name for a brand of Satanism) that has infiltrated  into our lives is to put on the Yoke of  Jesus Christ and cast off the yokes of this world to follow the inspirations of the Holy Spirit. 

      Of course this is a life long process and  I believe that is why we are engaged in debate in this forum.

Pax Christi,
MC





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#8
the rise of homosexuality is really just a symptom of a larger more pervasive problem in society and that is hedonism and secularism.

in a society that doesn't have a shared sense of morality and believes that the good life is the search for pleasure and entertainment, one side-effect will be the rise of homosexuality and all other kinds of vice.

Ancient Rome and modern society do not place any positive value on sacrifice.

The key value that Catholicism has given the purely material world is it proposed sacrifice as a good.

Archbishop Lefbvre himself explains this very well in a sermon when he talks about how when the Holy Sacrfice of the Mass was offered in Africa the community slowly changed and people began to make the sacrfices necessary to have a healthy and prosperous community.


Quote:

"There I saw—yes, I saw—what the grace of the Holy Mass could do. I saw it in the holy souls of some of our catechists. I saw it in those pagan souls transformed by the grace of baptism, transformed by assistance at Holy Mass, and by the Holy Eucharist. These souls understood the mystery of the Sacrifice of the Cross and united themselves to Our Lord Jesus Christ in the sufferings of His Cross, offering their sacrifices and their sufferings with Our Lord Jesus Christ, and living as Christians... I was able to see these pagan villages become Christian, being transformed not only, I would say, spiritually and supernaturally, but also being transformed physically, socially, economically and politically. Because these people—pagans that they were—became cognizant of the necessity of fulfilling their duties, in spite of trials, in spite of the sacrifices of maintaining their commitments, particularly their commitment in marriage. Then the village began to be transformed little by little under the influence of grace, under the influence of the grace of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Soon all the villages were wanting to have one of the Fathers visit them. Oh, the visit of a missionary! They waited impatiently to assist at the Holy Mass in order to be able to confess their sins and then to receive Holy Communion.
Some of these souls also consecrated themselves to God: nuns, priests, brothers, giving themselves to God, consecrating themselves to God. There you have the fruit of the Holy Mass.
Why did all this happen?
It is necessary that we study somewhat the profound motive of this transformation: sacrifice.
The notion of sacrifice is a profoundly Christian and a profoundly Catholic notion. Our life cannot be spent without sacrifice, since Our Lord Jesus Christ, God Himself, willed to take a body like our own and say to us: “Follow Me, take up thy cross and follow Me if thou wilt be saved.” And He has given us the example of His death upon the Cross; He has shed His Blood. Would we then dare—we, His miserable creatures, sinners that we are—not to follow Our Lord in pursuit of His Sacrifice, in pursuit of His Cross?
There is the entire mystery of Christian civilization. There is that which is the root of Christian civilization: the comprehension of sacrifice in one’s life, in daily life, the understanding of Christian suffering, no longer considering suffering as an evil, as an unbearable sorrow, but sharing one’s sufferings and one’s sickness with the sufferings of Our Lord Jesus Christ, in looking upon His Cross, in assisting at the Holy Mass, which is the continuation of the Passion of Our Lord upon Calvary.
Once understood, suffering becomes a joy and a treasure because these sufferings, if united to those of Our Lord, if united to those of all the martyrs, of all Catholics, of all the faithful who suffer in this world, if. united to the Cross of Our Lord, they, then become an inexpressible treasure, a treasure unutterable, and achieve an extraordinary capacity for the conversion of other souls and the salvation of our own. Many holy souls, Christians, have even desired to suffer in order to unite themselves more closely to the Cross of Our Lord Jesus Christ. There you have Christian civilization:
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