Vatican II in error
#11
I believe they are flawed documents. I think if you stand on your head, squint your eyes real tight while simultaneously juggling an apple, an ax and a running chainsaw taking an occasional bite of the apple during the process, you might be able to read them so they don't explicitly contradict pre-V2 teachings.  

Eventually the Church will condemn the errors that came about in the wake of V2. How the council is dealt with I don't know. The answer is probably tied up in the part of the Third Secret of Fatima still not released but we'll just have to see how it all plays out. Probably we'll get the scoop in the smoldering rubble of a post-chastisement world. Unfortunately.

Alls I know is God wins in the end and I pray He keeps me on His side through it all. Safest way is by sticking with the perennial teachings as they've been handed down intact through the ages. I'll pass on the novelties, thank you very much.

Sorry if this is flippant. It's been a long day and I'm beat.

DD

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#12
The magazine SiSiNoNo ran a series of articles entitled The Errors of Vatican II (reprinted here online for free: http://sspxasia.com/Documents/SiSiNoNo/2...can_II.htm ). Even if you don't think the errors were explicitly contradicting what came before (since they don't employ scholastic language and don't attempt to bind...I guess you might try this angle), it's darn near impossible to look at the issues raised and not see the documents are a disaster.

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#13
Best council ever. More important than Trent and Nicea. For 1961 years the Spirit was held back. Finally it was unleashed. The fruit of this is the charismatic movement. Hopefully Vatican iii can drive away the patriarchal church and move us into something more spirit filled. We are church.
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#14
To address the OP, there are a variety of stances among trads. Some see it is outright heretical in some places. Others see it as simply poorly written and misinterpreted.
Personally, I do see some problems. Nostra Aetate, for example, clearly asserts that the Jews and Muslims worship with us the God of Abraham. That is simply absurd, especially concerning Muslims, who teach that Our Lord was just a man and was never crucified. We on the other hand, recognize Jesus as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. In other words, He is God. So clearly the Muslims do not worship the same God as we do. It is impossible for it to be true. I would go on, but it's really late. I'm sure others will pick up the baton just fine.
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#15
(08-06-2013, 02:55 AM)Basilios Wrote: Best council ever. More important than Trent and Nicea. For 1961 years the Spirit was held back. Finally it was unleashed. The fruit of this is the charismatic movement. Hopefully Vatican iii can drive away the patriarchal church and move us into something more spirit filled. We are church.

Had me going there for a minute.....lol.
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#16
The documents that I have read are in line with Catholic doctrine.  The documents were written in academic language and are not meant to be taken at face value, like a newspaper is.  In Catholic ideology we are not meant to be judges of  any Ecumenical Council.
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#17
(08-05-2013, 07:56 PM)Tim Wrote: I think many "sleepers" were ready to add wording which would after the council be used to ruin the Church. These were not he only "sleepers" back home in their dioceses were many many more. I believe Bella Dodd's testimony which said by 1950 she had placed over a thousand "sleepers" in the Seminaries starting in the 1930's. That would mean many Bishops and their advisors were commies and poised with the masons and modernists to accomplish Gramisci's plan to infiltrate the Church and change it to shell of it's former self.  These were the plotters and schemers, and the rest followed because it appeared to be the new direction and honestly it was new and cool. It is stupefying how a cadre of these similar schemers and malcontents did take control and lead so many by their nose.

There is a salient point contrary to trad belief. Had the Council stuck to the business it would have been successful, and it was well over due.Many a Bishop and priest and sisters needed to remove their size 13 ee from the necks of the pew sitters, but alas that wasn't what happened.

tim

But wouldn't the Holy Spirit or at least the Holy Father have protected the Church from this sort of infiltration?
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#18
(08-06-2013, 08:21 AM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-05-2013, 07:56 PM)Tim Wrote: I think many "sleepers" were ready to add wording which would after the council be used to ruin the Church. These were not he only "sleepers" back home in their dioceses were many many more. I believe Bella Dodd's testimony which said by 1950 she had placed over a thousand "sleepers" in the Seminaries starting in the 1930's. That would mean many Bishops and their advisors were commies and poised with the masons and modernists to accomplish Gramisci's plan to infiltrate the Church and change it to shell of it's former self.  These were the plotters and schemers, and the rest followed because it appeared to be the new direction and honestly it was new and cool. It is stupefying how a cadre of these similar schemers and malcontents did take control and lead so many by their nose.

There is a salient point contrary to trad belief. Had the Council stuck to the business it would have been successful, and it was well over due.Many a Bishop and priest and sisters needed to remove their size 13 ee from the necks of the pew sitters, but alas that wasn't what happened.

tim

But wouldn't the Holy Spirit or at least the Holy Father have protected the Church from this sort of infiltration?

God sent Our Lady of Fatima with a dire message for 1960 concerning the preservation of the dogma of the faith. Pope John knew better than our lady what was for the good of the church.
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#19
(08-06-2013, 08:21 AM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-05-2013, 07:56 PM)Tim Wrote: I think many "sleepers" were ready to add wording which would after the council be used to ruin the Church. These were not he only "sleepers" back home in their dioceses were many many more. I believe Bella Dodd's testimony which said by 1950 she had placed over a thousand "sleepers" in the Seminaries starting in the 1930's. That would mean many Bishops and their advisors were commies and poised with the masons and modernists to accomplish Gramisci's plan to infiltrate the Church and change it to shell of it's former self.  These were the plotters and schemers, and the rest followed because it appeared to be the new direction and honestly it was new and cool. It is stupefying how a cadre of these similar schemers and malcontents did take control and lead so many by their nose.

There is a salient point contrary to trad belief. Had the Council stuck to the business it would have been successful, and it was well over due.Many a Bishop and priest and sisters needed to remove their size 13 ee from the necks of the pew sitters, but alas that wasn't what happened.

tim

But wouldn't the Holy Spirit or at least the Holy Father have protected the Church from this sort of infiltration?

The Holy Fathers because it was more than post Vatican II Popes, had little idea that the infiltration was as large as it was. They fought at the edges like with the Syllabus of Errors. This next part is the one I see that most Trads especially the younger ones can not wrap their heads around; Christ permitted this. There is no other explanation.

Jesus Christ was given all power in Heaven and on Earth, so either He willed this or He has permitted it.If you put the":conversation" which Pope Leo XIII was allowed to hear, then Pope Leo XIII's response, with Our Lady at Fatima, it becomes crystal clear. There is the problem. This Modernism started in the 1800's in Europe only, in America it was the American heresy. The flowed together in Vatican II.

Europe once was Christendom, and America was never that.  America like Babylon or the Assyria were used as God's instrument to chastise His Church like they were used to chastise Israel. America should shudder for what it did, because God does not allow His instruments of destruction to continue to exist. We are marked. Like Israel, European Christendom is gone and will never return.

tim
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#20
(08-06-2013, 09:02 AM)Tim Wrote:
(08-06-2013, 08:21 AM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-05-2013, 07:56 PM)Tim Wrote: I think many "sleepers" were ready to add wording which would after the council be used to ruin the Church. These were not he only "sleepers" back home in their dioceses were many many more. I believe Bella Dodd's testimony which said by 1950 she had placed over a thousand "sleepers" in the Seminaries starting in the 1930's. That would mean many Bishops and their advisors were commies and poised with the masons and modernists to accomplish Gramisci's plan to infiltrate the Church and change it to shell of it's former self.  These were the plotters and schemers, and the rest followed because it appeared to be the new direction and honestly it was new and cool. It is stupefying how a cadre of these similar schemers and malcontents did take control and lead so many by their nose.

There is a salient point contrary to trad belief. Had the Council stuck to the business it would have been successful, and it was well over due.Many a Bishop and priest and sisters needed to remove their size 13 ee from the necks of the pew sitters, but alas that wasn't what happened.

tim

But wouldn't the Holy Spirit or at least the Holy Father have protected the Church from this sort of infiltration?

The Holy Fathers because it was more than post Vatican II Popes, had little idea that the infiltration was as large as it was. They fought at the edges like with the Syllabus of Errors. This next part is the one I see that most Trads especially the younger ones can not wrap their heads around; Christ permitted this. There is no other explanation.

Jesus Christ was given all power in Heaven and on Earth, so either He willed this or He has permitted it.If you put the":conversation" which Pope Leo XIII was allowed to hear, then Pope Leo XIII's response, with Our Lady at Fatima, it becomes crystal clear. There is the problem. This Modernism started in the 1800's in Europe only, in America it was the American heresy. The flowed together in Vatican II.

Europe once was Christendom, and America was never that.  America like Babylon or the Assyria were used as God's instrument to chastise His Church like they were used to chastise Israel. America should shudder for what it did, because God does not allow His instruments of destruction to continue to exist. We are marked. Like Israel, European Christendom is gone and will never return.

tim


One thing which I have always had a conflict with, and maybe someone can clarify, did Our Lady of Fatima say that the Faith would always be preserved in Portugal? Then how could they approve of abortions & divorce? I can't remember their stance on gay marriage....

So, Tim if you are saying that Christendom in Europe is gone, and I agree with you, what about what Our Lady said? What about Portugal?Please help me understand. TIA.  :)
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