"If I'm Not Rad-Trad or Progressive, What Am I?"
#21
Tim,

You said Catholic or Roman Catholic is as far as you go.  So you never call yourself a "traditionalist"?

Also you are against "Rad Trads" separating themselves from others, but didn't the Catholic ghetto use to be separate itself to a certain degree?  Or do you think trads like the Society are in schism?

Before VII, it was (and should be in my opinion) the universal policy of the Church to build fortresses around Catholic institutions (like the parish) to protect Catholics from the anti-Christian current of modern society.
So I think both the idea of a Catholic ghetto (which John Senior called for, though not "ethnic,"), and the idea of a "traditionalist" movement to some degree separated from the Novus Ordo current, are in principal good.

Christulsa123
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#22
Guacamole, I left out "if " in the phrase. I typed "We need to rebuild Catholic Ghetto Parishes no matter we are a single ethnicity or we will perish." I missed if between matter and we. Which would then be; We need to rebuild Catholic Ghetto Parishes no matter if we are a single ethnicity or we will perish. Multi-culturalism is epic fail. Suburban sprawl is epic fail. There is no longer cohesiveness and the center has failed. Just like a balloon after the oxygen molecules become less excited we are shrinking. This is my paraphrasing what Pope Benedict said about getting smaller.

tim
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#23
(08-07-2013, 04:32 PM)Basilios Wrote: Charismatic... Catholic..... Orthodoxy...?

[Image: uUkz0.jpg]

Memester!  :hello!:
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#24
(08-07-2013, 04:54 PM)Tim Wrote: Guacamole, I left out "if " in the phrase. I typed "We need to rebuild Catholic Ghetto Parishes no matter we are a single ethnicity or we will perish." I missed if between matter and we. Which would then be; We need to rebuild Catholic Ghetto Parishes no matter if we are a single ethnicity or we will perish. Multi-culturalism is epic fail. Suburban sprawl is epic fail. There is no longer cohesiveness and the center has failed. Just like a balloon after the oxygen molecules become less excited we are shrinking. This is my paraphrasing what Pope Benedict said about getting smaller.

okay . . . and that doesn't mean that you favor ethnically segregated parishes?  or you don't mind if they are?  i would guess the former from the context (your statement about multi-culturalism).  but i guess i must be wrong because you seemed angry about that.  still not sure.  i don't think this is what pope benedict was saying.  please don't be mad at me.  i just disagree. 
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#25
(08-07-2013, 04:54 PM)Tim Wrote: Guacamole, I left out "if " in the phrase. I typed "We need to rebuild Catholic Ghetto Parishes no matter we are a single ethnicity or we will perish." I missed if between matter and we. Which would then be; We need to rebuild Catholic Ghetto Parishes no matter if we are a single ethnicity or we will perish. Multi-culturalism is epic fail. Suburban sprawl is epic fail. There is no longer cohesiveness and the center has failed. Just like a balloon after the oxygen molecules become less excited we are shrinking. This is my paraphrasing what Pope Benedict said about getting smaller.

tim

tim,

is that little "t" tim because you are just for little "t" Tradition?  Lol. Just kidding

if its the Catholic Ghetto Parish...or PERISH...does that then make you a "Catholic Ghetto" Catholic?

lol just having fun to make my point that "traditionalist Catholic" is an important designation.

christulsa123 with a little "c"
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#26
(08-07-2013, 04:54 PM)Tim Wrote: Guacamole, I left out "if " in the phrase. I typed "We need to rebuild Catholic Ghetto Parishes no matter we are a single ethnicity or we will perish." I missed if between matter and we. Which would then be; We need to rebuild Catholic Ghetto Parishes no matter if we are a single ethnicity or we will perish. Multi-culturalism is epic fail. Suburban sprawl is epic fail. There is no longer cohesiveness and the center has failed. Just like a balloon after the oxygen molecules become less excited we are shrinking. This is my paraphrasing what Pope Benedict said about getting smaller.

tim

l agree Tim.........probably because I was raised in a CATHOLIC ghetto. There were certain ghettos that were Polish Catholics, Irish Catholics, etc. .These parishes came to be because people tended, in the 30s & 40s especially, to speak the language of the country they came from more easily at first. Mine was just Catholic, there was no special race involved. There was, in my block one lady who spoke French, she married an American soldier. There was another family in which the Grandmother spoke only Polish until she died. Catholics purchased or rented houses there because it was within walking distance for the children to go to school.

When I was about 9 yrs. old, crime started to become a problem. I won't go into it now, but we didn't realize that there were people perverted enough to want to live close to a school. As soon as that was brought to our attention, my Father started looking for a new home. While it wasn't the suburbs, it was not a "Catholic neighborhood". You are right, it wasn't the same.
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#27
I don't use Traditionalist or Traditional because I'm from before that and I think it is a new deal. The ghettos were not hiding from the world. We kind of owned them and did as we pleased and the rest left us alone. They were not monolithic other Americans lived among us. In those days before the pill, and abortion, most folks were Protestants and some Jews but even if they didn't agree with our religion we shared a morality based on the decalogue. that no longer exists.

The Church did no such thing as erect fortresses around institutions unless it was the Curia. The orders which ran the schools could be over bearing, corporal punishment was not a threat it was an everyday occurrence. Have you ever kneeled on a triangular mechanical drawing scale and extend your arms holding two textbooks for a 45 minute class ? The Church in many respects was frozen in amber. They took it out on us instead of Luther. Trent should have receded in importance long before 1960, and this probably would have never happened.

It is apparent to me the SSPX has priests which will never return to Rome, and they are a danger to the rest. The other SSPX priests if they returned and rolled up their sleeves would make a huge impact. The battle field has changed it is no longer save the TLM and hide, now it's fix the problems within and teach the TLM to any and all of the priests that want to learn.

A travelling TLM with a very good Schola, which will come to a Parish for a Sunday Mass for all to see, would be a good first step.

tim
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#28
(08-07-2013, 05:43 PM)Tim Wrote: I don't use Traditionalist or Traditional because I'm from before that and I think it is a new deal. The ghettos were not hiding from the world. We kind of owned them and did as we pleased and the rest left us alone. They were not monolithic other Americans lived among us. In those days before the pill, and abortion, most folks were Protestants and some Jews but even if they didn't agree with our religion we shared a morality based on the decalogue. that no longer exists.

The Church did no such thing as erect fortresses around institutions unless it was the Curia. The orders which ran the schools could be over bearing, corporal punishment was not a threat it was an everyday occurrence. Have you ever kneeled on a triangular mechanical drawing scale and extend your arms holding two textbooks for a 45 minute class ? The Church in many respects was frozen in amber. They took it out on us instead of Luther. Trent should have receded in importance long before 1960, and this probably would have never happened.

It is apparent to me the SSPX has priests which will never return to Rome, and they are a danger to the rest. The other SSPX priests if they returned and rolled up their sleeves would make a huge impact. The battle field has changed it is no longer save the TLM and hide, now it's fix the problems within and teach the TLM to any and all of the priests that want to learn.

A travelling TLM with a very good Schola, which will come to a Parish for a Sunday Mass for all to see, would be a good first step.

tim

You make some good points about the Catholic ghetto, but by "fortress" I meant a RELIGIOUS separation from things like protestantism, the spirit of modernity, modern philosophy, modernism, revolutions, ecumenism, religious liberty, secularization of religion, etc, which is why the Papal and universal policy of the Church pre-VII was essentially "traditionalist."  And before the Council terms like "traditionalist" and "traditional" were used by pope, theologian, and laity alike because they were necessary (and still are more than ever!).

That said, I do appreciate your point of view growing up in the Catholic ghetto.

I recommend the book IOTA UNUM by Romano Amerio.


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#29
(08-07-2013, 06:34 PM)christulsa123 Wrote:
(08-07-2013, 05:43 PM)Tim Wrote: I don't use Traditionalist or Traditional because I'm from before that and I think it is a new deal. The ghettos were not hiding from the world. We kind of owned them and did as we pleased and the rest left us alone. They were not monolithic other Americans lived among us. In those days before the pill, and abortion, most folks were Protestants and some Jews but even if they didn't agree with our religion we shared a morality based on the decalogue. that no longer exists.

The Church did no such thing as erect fortresses around institutions unless it was the Curia. The orders which ran the schools could be over bearing, corporal punishment was not a threat it was an everyday occurrence. Have you ever kneeled on a triangular mechanical drawing scale and extend your arms holding two textbooks for a 45 minute class ? The Church in many respects was frozen in amber. They took it out on us instead of Luther. Trent should have receded in importance long before 1960, and this probably would have never happened.

It is apparent to me the SSPX has priests which will never return to Rome, and they are a danger to the rest. The other SSPX priests if they returned and rolled up their sleeves would make a huge impact. The battle field has changed it is no longer save the TLM and hide, now it's fix the problems within and teach the TLM to any and all of the priests that want to learn.

A travelling TLM with a very good Schola, which will come to a Parish for a Sunday Mass for all to see, would be a good first step.

tim

You make some good points about the Catholic ghetto, but by "fortress" I meant a RELIGIOUS separation from things like protestantism, the spirit of modernity, modern philosophy, modernism, revolutions, ecumenism, religious liberty, secularization of religion, etc, which is why the Papal and universal policy of Church pre-VII was essentially "traditionalist."  And before the Council terms like "traditionalist" and "traditional" we're used by pope, theologian, and laity alike because they were necessary (and still are more than ever!).

That said, I do appreciate your point of view growing up in the Catholic ghetto.

I recommend the book IOTA UNUM by Romano Amerio.

My good points come from my seeing the events in real time. The Church before Vatican II was essentially Catholic and the Faith was handed on, fide traditum. The words traditional and traditionalist may have been common in Church writings but no one said it. We didn't read that stuff, it wasn't available then to a commoner. There were decrees handed down like "you can not go to the YMCA, it's a mortal sin" or "you can't see the horror movie the Blob it's a mortal sin". Which make no sense.

In a pluralistic country you can not avoid coming in to contact with those things you mentioned. What they did was arm us with good catechises and pray we made it. What protects Tradition capital "T" is tradition small "t". That's where the Parish ghetto excels.. The parish where I grew up was mixed ethnically. It was after the War, and DP's were coming in droves. My ma was an excellent cook she could make dishes from many regions of Italy.

Parties like first Communions were the stuff of neighborhood legends. My ma became friends with many women from all over the world and they swapped recipes, but all agreed she was the best. Many of my pals were born in American Concentration camps after the war, but what kids from yugoslavia, alsace lorraine, genoa, and trieste had in common was our Catholic faith, and the fact lots of our parents spoke broken english. 

tim
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#30
To connect with like-minded Catholics since the Council you have to drive across town or state to the most conservative parish and even then newcomers have to plow through the fear of newcomers to connect with the parish, and even then it is hit or miss  Then you go into Internet forums where unity is not exactly the hallmark.

I am not opposed to building new Catholic ghettos, but it has to be organic. In my experience planned communities become sectarian.

That said, perhaps one day if the Society has a different status, you would be open to moving to the only Catholic ghetto I know of:  ST. MARY's, KANSAS.  Not urban, but it is a town. It grew organically and slowly for decades. The priests have generally kept the bad elements at bay in the parish/school (the sedevacantists, jansenistic types, etc). Every community will have its public sinners.

My perspective is growing up IN REAL time after the Crisis became a universal reality--the 70s through the 90s.

Too many trads my age are out of touch with the persecution and fight of the older generations; perhaps too few of the older generations are out of touch with the post-modern experience of the younger generation. We have been scandalized in every way possible.  The Church today looks fake, hypocritical, empty, boring, directionless. We look for authority to give us a compass, authenticity, consistency, trustworthiness, enlightenment, a cultural renewal of Catholic tradition, liturgical beauty. But at the same Gen X/Y tends to be immature, selfish, lazy, and trendy. It's a stretch for us to delve into papal documents, read Thomas Aquinas, practice chivalry and courtship, or adopt attitudes and trends from the 1950s.

Somewhere in between, despite very real differences among groups--traditionalists, conservatives, etc, hopefully we can all "restore all things to Christ"...as Catholics.
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