Mysterious priest performs miracle at site of Mercedes crash
#51
(08-09-2013, 11:03 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(08-09-2013, 10:39 PM)devoutchristian Wrote: Strawman.

Straw man ??? You have stated in answer to my question regarding Matrimony that speech is a physical act. You have stated that, 'revelation states that only living humans have actual physical bodies with which to perform physical actions. When angels appear they do not possess real physical bodies but only the appearance of bodies.' Ergo, by your statements, St Gabriel could not possibly have pronounced the words 'Hail full of Grace'.

I made my point about Anointing of the Sick without making an argument about the nature of speech.
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#52
(08-09-2013, 07:50 PM)devoutchristian Wrote:
(08-09-2013, 07:17 PM)Zedta Wrote:
(08-09-2013, 02:51 PM)devoutchristian Wrote:
(08-08-2013, 12:00 PM)In nomine Patris Wrote:
(08-07-2013, 06:33 PM)guacamole Wrote: This has all the hallmarks of the supernatural.  It could have been a currently living saint bilocating, or a saint from heaven.




Or an angel.



Only a living priest can administer a valid sacrament. I doubt that God would cause a miracle which had an invalid sacrament as part of it.

Disagree.

Then you disagree with how the Church has always understood the nature of the sacraments.

No, I disagree with your placement of limitations on the power of God. What you say the Church says, well I am unfamiliar with that tenet and it seems as though it has been frequently trumped, so is ultimately invalidated by Heaven fairly often.
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#53
(08-09-2013, 11:19 PM)devoutchristian Wrote: I made my point about Anointing of the Sick without making an argument about the nature of speech.
You said, and I quote:

devoutchristian Wrote:Without getting into the fact that speaking is a physical action,...

You had also said:
(08-09-2013, 11:19 PM)devoutchristian Wrote: ®evelation states that only living humans have actual physical bodies with which to perform physical actions. When angels appear they do not possess real physical bodies but only the appearance of bodies.

And:

devoutchristian Wrote:The difference is that only one of the acts is the performing of a sacrament. The sacrament had already occurred in the other case.
Despite the fact that performing the Sacrament of Anointing, distributing Holy Communion, and announcing the Incarnation to the Blessed Virgin are all physical acts which, 'according to revelation' are impossible to Angels (and I assume, you are maintaining, to Saints who were Priests on Earth).

May I suggest a good course in logic?  A good place to start would be with Fr Jaime Balmes, Elements of Logic, a solid Thomistic textbook written for the non-specialist in the middle of the XIXth Century:

http://www.archive.org/stream/elementsof...5/mode/2up
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#54
By now you’ve surely heard about the “mystery priest” who inexplicably appeared at the scene of an accident in Missouri, prayed with the victim and emergency workers, made things come out right, and then disappeared. (If somehow you’ve missed the story, here is just one among thousands of media accounts.) Who was that priest? No one recognized him; he wasn’t from the area. He showed up unannounced, although police had blocked off access to the road. In dozens of photos of the accident, his face is never seen. Emergency workers, and the young woman whose life was saved, want to meet this priest, just to thank him. But he hasn’t come forward.

There may be a very natural explanation for all this. But as the days pass and the mystery deepens, the people who say it was a miracle sound more and more convincing.

Who was that priest? I don’t know. But I do have a suggestion on how he might be identified:

1.Start showing the witnesses photos of priests with a reputation for holiness.
2.Include photos of priests who are no longer alive.
3.Prepare for a shock.


http://www.catholicculture.org/commentar...cfm?id=630
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#55
devoutchristian Wrote:®evelation states that only living humans have actual physical bodies with which to perform physical actions. When angels appear they do not possess real physical bodies but only the appearance of bodies.

Das not true.

Angels do take physical bodies but they do not animate the body. They use the matter but they don't own it. However, they do take the material stuff of the body and using angelic power they make the organs do as they wish. He doesn't make the body alive or make it his own body, but it's still just as physical as your body.
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#56
(08-09-2013, 10:03 PM)OldMan Wrote:
(08-09-2013, 09:33 PM)Tim Wrote: Didn't the Angel at Fatima, suspend the Ciborium in mid air, kneel and adore, then distribute Communion to the three children ?

tim

Yep, but ladies in purple stretch pants distribute "Communion" too. And they think it's ok.. Remember the angel was not confecting the sacrament at Fatima only distributing Communion. An angel could not administer extreme unction or remit sin as they are not ordained priests. I think we will eventually find out who this person was. Can't wait.

Since this argument and not you per se revolves on some crazy notion of physicality I ask "where did the Communion come from and Who confected  the Sacrament". We were taught the Sacrifice of the Mass Does Not Happen in Heaven. It is necessary for us down here and not the Saints nor Angels. It seems to me this is another case of "reasoning" wanting to limit the Omnipotent God. Isn't the "physical" for us as we need in our limited form an outward sign in a sacrament. But in fact if we humans were spiritual as the angels none would be necessary, meaning only humans are bound in the physical, No ??

tim
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#57
(08-10-2013, 06:17 AM)Basilios Wrote:
devoutchristian Wrote:®evelation states that only living humans have actual physical bodies with which to perform physical actions. When angels appear they do not possess real physical bodies but only the appearance of bodies.

Das not true.

Angels do take physical bodies but they do not animate the body. They use the matter but they don't own it. However, they do take the material stuff of the body and using angelic power they make the organs do as they wish. He doesn't make the body alive or make it his own body, but it's still just as physical as your body.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but what about the angels in the Old Testament?  Like St Raphael?  Didn't he escort Tobias in physical form?
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#58
(08-10-2013, 06:07 AM)Poche Wrote: By now you’ve surely heard about the “mystery priest” who inexplicably appeared at the scene of an accident in Missouri, prayed with the victim and emergency workers, made things come out right, and then disappeared. (If somehow you’ve missed the story, here is just one among thousands of media accounts.) Who was that priest? No one recognized him; he wasn’t from the area. He showed up unannounced, although police had blocked off access to the road. In dozens of photos of the accident, his face is never seen. Emergency workers, and the young woman whose life was saved, want to meet this priest, just to thank him. But he hasn’t come forward.

There may be a very natural explanation for all this. But as the days pass and the mystery deepens, the people who say it was a miracle sound more and more convincing.

Who was that priest? I don’t know. But I do have a suggestion on how he might be identified:

1.Start showing the witnesses photos of priests with a reputation for holiness.
2.Include photos of priests who are no longer alive.
3.Prepare for a shock.


http://www.catholicculture.org/commentar...cfm?id=630
I would love to know what they are referring to/what they mean when they say "prepare for a shock".
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#59
(08-10-2013, 08:29 AM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 06:17 AM)Basilios Wrote:
devoutchristian Wrote:®evelation states that only living humans have actual physical bodies with which to perform physical actions. When angels appear they do not possess real physical bodies but only the appearance of bodies.

Das not true.

Angels do take physical bodies but they do not animate the body. They use the matter but they don't own it. However, they do take the material stuff of the body and using angelic power they make the organs do as they wish. He doesn't make the body alive or make it his own body, but it's still just as physical as your body.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but what about the angels in the Old Testament?  Like St Raphael?  Didn't he escort Tobias in physical form?

Yeah that's what I am saying. They are physically truly there but the bodies they take are not alive or 'theirs' - they just use them.
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#60
(08-10-2013, 06:17 AM)Basilios Wrote:
devoutchristian Wrote:®evelation states that only living humans have actual physical bodies with which to perform physical actions. When angels appear they do not possess real physical bodies but only the appearance of bodies.

Das not true.

Angels do take physical bodies but they do not animate the body. They use the matter but they don't own it. However, they do take the material stuff of the body and using angelic power they make the organs do as they wish. He doesn't make the body alive or make it his own body, but it's still just as physical as your body.

Fair enough. But such a body would be little different than a robot, since it would be a purely material thing simply controlled by a rational creature, so just as a robot couldn't administer sacraments, so too an angelic body could not either.

(08-10-2013, 06:51 AM)Tim Wrote: It seems to me this is another case of "reasoning" wanting to limit the Omnipotent God.

You're right. Darn all those scholastic philosophers who thought that faith was rational.
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