Pope Francis and Tradition
#21
(08-12-2013, 01:32 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
(08-12-2013, 01:17 PM)Basilios Wrote: Judging from the things I've read on Orthodox forums, the Novus Ordo (in their eyes) is just one more confirmation that we're heretics and not at all the true faith. And that's not even for the worst types of NO Masses - just the Rite itself. It's scary what the new Mass has done in this regard.

Do you know what their specific problem is with the rite per se? From their perspective it should actually be an improvement on the TLM since it has an explicit epiclesis.  Objections to the rite itself, except for maybe the permission for ad populum, in my experience usually comes from former trad Catholics (or those online trying to covert trad Catholics).  I do know many EO think it's bad by the very fact that it was a new or radically amended rite that was promulgated.  Of course, the answer to that is if the Church could prmulgate and amend rites in the past, then, if it is the same Church, it can now.  The fact that they claim their Churches no longer have the same powers that they admit the Church before the schism had, is telling as to whether their group is that same Church.

Browse a few of their forums and it should come up sometime. From what I remember their problem was that it was completely made up (by a Freemason) and not traditional; and also that it sounded Proddy.
]But you're probably correct that those ones are ex-trad Catholics. Maybe not.

I don't go on Orthodox forums anymore because it was/is a danger to my faith  :blush: When you're stuck in Novus Ordo land these things become tempting.
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#22
(08-12-2013, 01:41 PM)Basilios Wrote: I don't go on Orthodox forums anymore because it was/is a danger to my faith  :blush: When you're stuck in Novus Ordo land these things become tempting.

True that.  I have never been on an Orthodox forum, but I can tell you that I have often wondered whether the Orthodox were right all along.  Thankfully, it doesn't take much to make myself realize that that can't be, but it runs through my mind for sure.
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#23
Honestly, Orthodoxy is plagued by modernism, its just that they didn't have a Vatican II to speed things along. Not to mention they have even less unity than we do. For example, here in my town the two Greek Orthodox churches cannot even agree whether to accept as "Orthodox" those just received into the Church by Chrismation or re-baptism and the one church that wants re-baptism will not allow those received by chrismation alone toi go up for Holy Communion. This is just in one town in one jurisdiction! As for modernism, in many places Orthodoxy has been reduced to a sort of Protestantism with icons and incense....invluding a hatred of all things Roman Catholic.
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#24
(08-11-2013, 02:32 PM)christulsa123 Wrote:
(08-11-2013, 07:53 AM)Cetil Wrote:
(08-11-2013, 07:46 AM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-11-2013, 07:35 AM)Cetil Wrote:
(08-11-2013, 05:50 AM)Pro Tridentina (Malta) Wrote: What I still can't fathom about Pope Francis is his appreciation of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy which is still traditional. Since he's also ecumenically minded, he should remember (or be informed  :) ) that the Orthodox were/are in favour of Summorum Pontificum:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com...morum.html

A very good point, and he does seem to grasp the problem at least in part: "In the Orthodox Churches they have kept that pristine liturgy, so beautiful. We have lost a bit the sense of adoration. They keep, they praise God, they adore God, they sing, time doesn’t count. God is the center, and this is a richness that I would like to say on this occasion in which you ask me this question. Once, speaking of the Western Church, of Western Europe, especially the Church that has grown most, they said this phrase to me: “Lux ex oriente, ex occidente luxus.” Consumerism, wellbeing, have done us so much harm. Instead you keep this beauty of God at the center, the reference. When one reads Dostoyevsky – I believe that for us all he must be an author to read and reread, because he has wisdom – one perceives what the Russian spirit is, the Eastern spirit. It’s something that will do us so much good. We are in need of this renewal, of this fresh air of the East, of this light of the East."
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/201...gXKHWrn-1s

C.

Perhaps he's looking to unite first, then change the Liturgy (to the Orthodox Liturgy).

Not sure how I feel about that idea. 

I think realistic chances of union are extremely slim to none. No matter how flexible he is the Orthodox still look down their noses at us;  I am thinking of Bartholomew's address at Georgetown University in 1997, sometimes known as the "friends, brothers, heretics" speech. Not going to happen.

C.

Francis speaks of the beauty of the Orthodox liturgy, when in fact they stole the eastern rites from the Eastern Catholic Churches, when they became schismatic "Churches."

His love of the eastern liturgy is a small sign of hope though.

Problem there is that the Orthodox Church is the original remnant of the original Eastern Church. Let's not be intellectually dishonest here... the Eastern Catholic Churches developed after later reunifications. The Orthodox have stolen nothing.
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#25
(08-12-2013, 11:52 PM)vtcatholic Wrote:
(08-11-2013, 02:32 PM)christulsa123 Wrote:
(08-11-2013, 07:53 AM)Cetil Wrote:
(08-11-2013, 07:46 AM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-11-2013, 07:35 AM)Cetil Wrote:
(08-11-2013, 05:50 AM)Pro Tridentina (Malta) Wrote: What I still can't fathom about Pope Francis is his appreciation of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy which is still traditional. Since he's also ecumenically minded, he should remember (or be informed  :) ) that the Orthodox were/are in favour of Summorum Pontificum:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com...morum.html

A very good point, and he does seem to grasp the problem at least in part: "In the Orthodox Churches they have kept that pristine liturgy, so beautiful. We have lost a bit the sense of adoration. They keep, they praise God, they adore God, they sing, time doesn’t count. God is the center, and this is a richness that I would like to say on this occasion in which you ask me this question. Once, speaking of the Western Church, of Western Europe, especially the Church that has grown most, they said this phrase to me: “Lux ex oriente, ex occidente luxus.” Consumerism, wellbeing, have done us so much harm. Instead you keep this beauty of God at the center, the reference. When one reads Dostoyevsky – I believe that for us all he must be an author to read and reread, because he has wisdom – one perceives what the Russian spirit is, the Eastern spirit. It’s something that will do us so much good. We are in need of this renewal, of this fresh air of the East, of this light of the East."
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/201...gXKHWrn-1s

C.

Perhaps he's looking to unite first, then change the Liturgy (to the Orthodox Liturgy).

Not sure how I feel about that idea. 

I think realistic chances of union are extremely slim to none. No matter how flexible he is the Orthodox still look down their noses at us;  I am thinking of Bartholomew's address at Georgetown University in 1997, sometimes known as the "friends, brothers, heretics" speech. Not going to happen.

C.

Francis speaks of the beauty of the Orthodox liturgy, when in fact they stole the eastern rites from the Eastern Catholic Churches, when they became schismatic "Churches."

His love of the eastern liturgy is a small sign of hope though.

Problem there is that the Orthodox Church is the original remnant of the original Eastern Church. Let's not be intellectually dishonest here... the Eastern Catholic Churches developed after later reunifications. The Orthodox have stolen nothing.

Let's not be heterodox. Anything good in a false religion is that which the false religion shares in common with Catholicism.
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#26
The Eastern Catholic Church goes back to the beginning, not the Eastern Orthodox Church which later broke away taking with them the Eastern liturgy. St John Chrysostom and St Basil were not Orthodox. They were Catholic.
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#27
(08-13-2013, 07:40 PM)christulsa123 Wrote: The Eastern Catholic Church goes back to the beginning, not the Orthodox who later broke away taking with the the Eastern liturgy. St John Chrysostum and St Basil were not Orthodox. They were Catholic.

Exactly.
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#28

       

http://absoluteprimacyofchrist.org/offic...n-insider/:


OFFICIAL NOTE of 03 Aug 2013: A RESPONSE TO VATICAN INSIDER
Posted on August 5, 2013 by Fr. Maximilian

Ave Maria!

Announcement from our Official website:

On 02 August 2013, the website vaticaninsider.lastampa.it published an article entitled «Lombardi: “Sulla Messa in latino il Papa non contraddice Ratzinger“» (Lombardi: on the Latin Mass the Pope does not contradict Ratzinger), signed “editorial staff”. [translator's note: since this Italian article was not published with an English translation, the translations of it are ours.]


This article, after reporting the statements of Fr. Lombardi, who takes the same line we already had, contains calumnious statements against our Founder, Fr. Stefano M. Manelli, statements that we feel the duty to reject. In the same article there is also untrue or imprecise information to which we wish to draw attention.

1) In regard to the assignment of a Commissioner for our Institute of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, the anonymous journalist writes (our bold):
“The decision of Pope Bergoglio—against which some traditionalist groups rose up, and which the religious instead immediately accepted—was motivated by the fact that the founder and general superior, Fr. Stefano Manelli, had imposed on all the communities of the Franciscans of the Immaculate the exclusive use of the extraordinary form of the liturgy, i.e., the old rite.”

The phrase we have highlighted in bold does not at all correspond to the truth.
It is our duty to respond, with knowledge and in conscience, that in reality, Fr. Stefano not only has never imposed on all the F.I. communities the use—much less the exclusive use—of the Vetus Ordo, but he does not even want it to become the exclusive use, and he has personally given the example, celebrating everywhere according to the one and the other Ordo.

It is well to know that before, during, and after the Apostolic Visit (July 2012–July 2013), as well as at present, the exclusive or prioritized use of the greater part of the F.F.I. Communities is the Novus Ordo (Holy Mass and Breviary).

Fr. Stefano Manelli, as Minister General, together with his General Council, legitimately undertook an effort to promote the Vetus Ordo, respecting the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum (2007), respecting the decisions of our General Chapter of 2008, and respecting the Instruction Universae Ecclesiae (2011).
With a letter, Prot. 77/2011, dated 21 Nov 2011, our General Secretary, in the name of our General Council, sent all the F.F.I. Marian Houses (Friaries), some indicative (not preceptive!) norms regarding the use of the Vetus Ordo and the harmony between the Vetus Ordo and the Novus Ordo in our Communities and our Institute.
After this letter, various communities peacefully continued to give pride of place to the Vetus or the Novus Ordo. So there was no imposition on the part of Fr. Manelli.

Some Friars, however, contested the aforesaid letter. Therefore, we consulted the Pontificial Commission “Ecclesia Dei”, which with a  R e s c r i p t  of 14 Apr 2012, Prot. 39/2011L, found conformity between this letter (Prot. 77/2011) and the “mens” of Holy Father Benedict XVI, expressed in the already-mentioned Instruction Universae Ecclesiae, n° 8a.

2) The anonymous journalist of Vatican Insider, in the same article, also writes (our bold):
«It can be adopted as a proper (therefore exclusive) rite by the Religious Institutes and monastic communities that return to communion with Rome after having participated in the Levebvrian schism, and which for this reason are subject to the jurisdiction of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei».

We respond: it is well to point out that in reality, in the spirit of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum (n° 3) and the Instruction Universae Ecclesiae (n° 8a), the Vetus Ordo as a “proper” rite (exclusive or not, but at least having priority), can be adopted also by Religious Communities not dependent upon the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” and not coming from the Lefebvrian “schism”. Nevertheless, it was never our Founder’s intention to arrive at an exclusive use.

3) The anonymous journalist also writes (our bold):
“The Franciscans of the Immaculate were founded instead after the Council, and furthermore a survey among the friars demonstrated that the majority of them desire to celebrate the ordinary rite”.

We respond: the fact that we were founded after the Council does not prohibit us F.I.’s from adopting or privileging the Vetus Ordo. Furthermore, the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum (published after the Council) is also addressed to the Institutes of Consecrated Life (without specification as to the date of foundation), and in addition, in no. 8a of the Instruction Universae Ecclesiae, it is specified that the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum has the aim, first of all, of “offering to all the faithful the Roman Liturgy in the Usus Antiquior, considered as a precious treasure to be preserved”. In that “all the faithful”, Religious are obviously also included.

If, by speaking of a “majority”, the anonymous journalist refers to the datum cited in the article of Alessandro Speciale of 30 Jul 2013, «Francis approves appointment of commissioner to oversee Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate», namely: “in a survey carried out during the apostolic visit, the vast majority of the order’s members had said they did not agree that the Old Latin Rite should be the exclusive form used for celebrations of the mass, ‘particularly in the pastoral care programmes of Italian parishes and in the missions.’” [we have slightly altered Vatican Insider's translation], we consider it necessary to point out that this datum—if true—would not attest anything other than a unity of intention between the vast majority and our Founder on the question of exclusivity.
In any case, if the “majority” of the friars [So far as we are aware, there has not been any survey involving all the members of the Institute. Therefore, survey-based affirmations as to the will of the majority of the friars appear to us to be completely baseless] prefers to celebrate according to the Novus Ordo (Holy Mass and Breviary), it could perfectly well continue to do so, as it has in the past. Furthermore, Fr. Manelli himself principally celebrates the Novus Ordo (Holy Mass and Breviary).
*****
While we remain obedient to the dispositions of the Holy See, it nevertheless remains our duty to make clarifications as necessary to avoid: 1) calumnies against our Founder, and 2) obstacles to the serene progress of the present period under a Commissioner.

We take the occasion to specify that the only official spokesman of our Institute, especially in this very delicate situation, remains our Procurator General, Fr. Alessandro Apollonio.

**************************

      Does anyone have an idea what motivated  Pope Francis place this restriction to the NO mass only for  the Order of  Franciscans of the Immaculate Conception? 

In the Hearts of  Jesus & Mary,
MC
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