Gerald Warner: Ban on Latin Mass has put Pope beyond the pale
#11
(08-11-2013, 02:57 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(08-11-2013, 07:46 AM)Cetil Wrote: I think Warner is missing the point that groups like the FFI are governed more by article three of Summorum Pontificum which is not exactly a blank check.
"Art. 3.  If communities of Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, whether of pontifical or diocesan right, wish to celebrate the conventual or community Mass in their own oratories according to the 1962 edition of the Roman Missal, they are permitted to do so.  If an individual community or an entire Institute or Society wishes to have such celebrations frequently, habitually or permanently, the matter is to be decided by the Major Superiors according to the norm of law and their particular laws and statutes."

While I am not happy with what happened in the FFI, I don't think all the shoes have been dropped just yet, the whole picture just isn't clear. What bears watching to me is whether those in the FFI who wish to say the TLM will find themselves blocked, and that remains to be seen.  But I do consider an Apostolic Visitation of the Jesuits a much more pressing concern!

C.

Cetil, while you're quite right that article 3. isn't a blank cheque, the problem is, from everything I've been able to gather, that the FFI followed the the article strictissimi juris, approved by the General Chapter and the Major Superiors 'according to the norm of law and their particular laws and statutes.'

Then, a small group of dissidents (I have heard as few as six) got upset and wrote to Rome. Bang! The hammer fell! How long until yet another Order or Institute gets slapped down because a few members don't like the TLM?

I share your concerns Jovan, as I said I think the Jesuits are a more pressing concern for an Apostolic Visitation.

C.
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#12
Tim, the Pope is naive, come now, he has run a major Archdiocese in a Catholic country, he is far from naive.
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#13
(08-11-2013, 12:33 AM)PurposefulMother Wrote: ???

I'm pretty sure that the pope can issue whatever he pleases, but he has no right to ban or withhold  mass from orders who are not in direct conflict with infallible teaching. If FFI has not taught against doctrine, then they should not be disallowed to celebrate the mass.

I'm confused by this. TLM has been gaining in popularity, people love it and are protective of it. Even us folks who attend NO mass respond in latin and veil at church. I don't understand why pope Francis would undermine any movement that gets more vocations, more attendance and more people really learning and trying to understand the faith.

Imho, it seems like the Vatican does all that it can to drive away as many catholics as it can, while publicly handing out the holy Eucharist to open abortion supporters. Is that the type of Catholic the Vatican is looking for? It doesn't seem to be this pope or that pope who does this, but it's a concerted effort to keep faithful or struggling adherents at arms length, while holding the door open to only  the nominally Catholic. It is very confusing for converts to understand this. Why is the one church always flip-flopping? I thought she was supposed to be constant and unchanging. So, why's she so indecisive? All this wishy-washy policy making is turning me off of the Vatican entirely.

Welcome to a glimpse of the "diabolical disorientation" that Our Lady of Fatima said would enter the Church if the Pope doesn't make the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Our Lady.

I totally agree that it is beyond comprehension to see the Pope and Bishops pandering to the worldlings while doing whatever they can to tick off traditionalist faithful catholics.

My guess is that this comes with having to steward the Church institutions in the world, and a world that is now hostile to the real faith. This leads to either giving up or downgrading the faith to keep the money flowing or you have to give up the institutions to keep the purity of the faith.

Of course the institutions were the Church's bread and butter, at least for evangelization. Start with orphanages and schools and then these children raise Catholic familes and this spreads the faith etc etc.

The major crisis is that we now have three generations of people who have no idea what true Catholicism is and the clergy themselves now are so poorly formed.

I don't see any practical way out of this mess without Divine Intervention, for the good or ill.
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#14
(08-11-2013, 05:27 PM)MorganHiver Wrote: Is it time for the FFI to revolt? what constitutes grounds for a revolt?

Revolt is not an option!  These Franciscans are Pontifical Rite and must absolutely be obedient at what comes down from the Holy Father.  And he is not to be attacked either.Was this unjust  Yes!  But God and Our Lady have permitted it so that as the holy founder, Fr. Stefano Manelli,  has written great graces may be had.

Those who know Church history know that there is nothing new under the sun. This sort of thing has happened before.  St. Padre Pio was refused permission to hear confessions or offer Mass in public for years.  He could not write his spiritual children. He was almost kicked out of the priesthood--all terribly unjust but he was obedient and the graces from that obedience make him the saint he is today. This is a time of testing for the FI, not for revolt.

St. Francis did not die as superior of the order he founded. He saw already those who wanted to modify his rule.  St. Alphonsus was kicked out of the order he founded.  St. Jeanne Jugan and St. Mary MacKillop experienced similar things.  This is the stuff that happens to saints!

Let us pray that those who wish to offer or assist at the TLM will be given permission by the new overseer very soon.  And may that overseer not do anything to destroy the original charism.  It was wrong to prohibit this liturgy but you know the devil must be laughing over the fight over the form of the Holy Sacrifice for he hates the Holy Mass and, to be honest, there are indeed more graces generally flowing from the TLM which does not give way easily to abuse.
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#15
The bishop who lives at the Vatican hotel  is mean  spirited toward trad.  He knows  that Traditional orders  are proof that you can t fool all of the people all the time. The new religion is not working so he hangs on to his 3rd world attitudes in his mine set to show beauty in our churches and mass with fine music and grand vestments  will only up set the poor he forgets that- CHRIST SAID THE POOR WILL ALWAYS BE WITH YOU.- I will pray for his convertion .
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#16
The question of a double standard being applied remains in my mind unless something else gets clearer and the same cardinal who ordered the Apostolic Visitation doesn't think obedience is any longer an application of a "command" :
"Obedience and authority need to be re-visioned," Braz de Aviz said. "An authority that commands kills. An authority that serves generates life. An obedience that merely copies what the other says infantilizes, makes us less human."


http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/vatica...sts-church

In the end, I don't think there is any escape from the fact that obedience is in fact, obedience.

C.
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#17
(08-12-2013, 11:30 AM)winoblue1 Wrote:
(08-11-2013, 12:33 AM)PurposefulMother Wrote: ???

I'm pretty sure that the pope can issue whatever he pleases, but he has no right to ban or withhold  mass from orders who are not in direct conflict with infallible teaching. If FFI has not taught against doctrine, then they should not be disallowed to celebrate the mass.

I'm confused by this. TLM has been gaining in popularity, people love it and are protective of it. Even us folks who attend NO mass respond in latin and veil at church. I don't understand why pope Francis would undermine any movement that gets more vocations, more attendance and more people really learning and trying to understand the faith.

Imho, it seems like the Vatican does all that it can to drive away as many catholics as it can, while publicly handing out the holy Eucharist to open abortion supporters. Is that the type of Catholic the Vatican is looking for? It doesn't seem to be this pope or that pope who does this, but it's a concerted effort to keep faithful or struggling adherents at arms length, while holding the door open to only  the nominally Catholic. It is very confusing for converts to understand this. Why is the one church always flip-flopping? I thought she was supposed to be constant and unchanging. So, why's she so indecisive? All this wishy-washy policy making is turning me off of the Vatican entirely.

Welcome to a glimpse of the "diabolical disorientation" that Our Lady of Fatima said would enter the Church if the Pope doesn't make the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Our Lady.

I totally agree that it is beyond comprehension to see the Pope and Bishops pandering to the worldlings while doing whatever they can to tick off traditionalist faithful catholics.

My guess is that this comes with having to steward the Church institutions in the world, and a world that is now hostile to the real faith. This leads to either giving up or downgrading the faith to keep the money flowing or you have to give up the institutions to keep the purity of the faith.

Of course the institutions were the Church's bread and butter, at least for evangelization. Start with orphanages and schools and then these children raise Catholic familes and this spreads the faith etc etc.

The major crisis is that we now have three generations of people who have no idea what true Catholicism is and the clergy themselves now are so poorly formed.

I don't see any practical way out of this mess without Divine Intervention, for the good or ill.

Girl, you said it!! One priest actually left his order to become Mormon, thankfully coming back home.  It it shows how poorly formed many priests are, that they would even for a moment consider Mormonism a valid religion. It's nothing but a phony protection racket and he didn't see that?!
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#18
(08-11-2013, 07:51 PM)Cetil Wrote: I share your concerns Jovan, as I said I think the Jesuits are a more pressing concern for an Apostolic Visitation.

C.

But, Cetil, you just don't get it. As long as they're not attached to that old, 'outdated' TLM, we have to be 'inclusive'. Everyone is welcome under the Big Tent, Jesuits, LCRW, Charismatics, the Neo-Catechumenal Way. As long as they're 'up-to-date', anything goes! :)
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