Pope Francis will consecrate the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary
#41
The paradox I see in the Consecration dilemma is that while on one hand to restore the Church it needs to be done, but for it to be done will take restoring things enough throughout the hierarchy for said hierarchy to actually submit to the BVM and make the consecration in concert with the pope...

Which is why I think we have to conclude the Church failed the test in 1960, plunging the Church into the Great Apostacy and Chastisement.

A future consecration as requested wont prevent Gods wrath, IMO; rather it will bring it to an end.

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#42
(08-13-2013, 12:36 PM)guacamole Wrote: i just want to say that i support those of you who hold the consecrationalist faith.  you have a right to your beliefs just like anyone else.  i'm glad that you still identify as catholics.  it's nice to think of you that way.

I get what you're saying--there is a tendency to elevate private revelation in an unhealthy fashion. However, I don't think that believing all the stuff about Fatima and the Consecration of Russia necessarily makes one a "consecrationalist," or whatever word we want to use for what you, in you sarcasm, are trying to point out. I don't think about the consecration all that often, actually--I pray for it regularly, but ultimately, I have plenty of non-private revelation to keep me busy, and, in any case, it's out of my hands.

Unless, of course, you're saying that the whole idea of the consecration of Russia (or the idea that it has not already been done) is ludicrous. In which case I would have to disagree. There may be ludicrous people who subscribe to the idea, but that doesn't make the idea itself ludicrous.
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#43
(08-13-2013, 02:21 PM)christulsa123 Wrote: The paradox I see in the Consecration dilemma is that while on one hand to restore the Church it needs to be done, but for it to be done will take restoring things enough throughout the hierarchy for said hierarchy to actually submit to the BVM and make the consecration in concert with the pope...

Which is why I think we have to conclude the Church failed the test in 1960, plunging the Church into the Great Apostacy and Chastisement.

A future consecration as requested wont prevent Gods wrath, IMO; rather it will bring it to an end.

I think it might be a step in the right direction, but I'm not one who believes that this consecration to Russia is the end all be all.  There's way too much else needing fixing in the VII Church. 
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#44
(08-13-2013, 12:15 PM)Basilios Wrote: That fact is that Our Lady appeared and requested something. The Church has said that this indeed is true. So, if she requested something, we should do it. Simples.

The Church has said that it is worthy of belief, not that it is true, or somehow part of the deposit of Faith that we must believe.  I would like to see the Holy Father consecrate Russia, and every other country he goes to for that matter, but it s hardly wrong to not buy into an private revelation. 
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#45
(08-13-2013, 02:26 PM)Beardly Wrote: Unless, of course, you're saying that the whole idea of the consecration of Russia (or the idea that it has not already been done) is ludicrous. In which case I would have to disagree. There may be ludicrous people who subscribe to the idea, but that doesn't make the idea itself ludicrous.

no, i don't mean at all to make fun of other people's religions!  consecrationalists are very close to us in their faith and can even be called catholics.  that's good enough for me.  of course, i don't share their belief that the alleged apparitions of the virgin mary at fatima, and the words spoken there, are on par with revelation and must be carried out.  the teaching of catholicism, as opposed to consecrationalism, is that revelation closed with the death of the last apostle and that everything -- everything -- necessary for salvation was revealed by then.
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#46
(08-13-2013, 12:36 PM)guacamole Wrote: i just want to say that i support those of you who hold the consecrationalist faith.  you have a right to your beliefs just like anyone else.  i'm glad that you still identify as catholics.  it's nice to think of you that way.

Really?  If you have nothing to actually add to the discussion, perhaps you can just stop wasting everyone's time. 
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#47
(08-13-2013, 02:57 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(08-13-2013, 12:15 PM)Basilios Wrote: That fact is that Our Lady appeared and requested something. The Church has said that this indeed is true. So, if she requested something, we should do it. Simples.

The Church has said that it is worthy of belief, not that it is true, or somehow part of the deposit of Faith that we must believe.  I would like to see the Holy Father consecrate Russia, and every other country he goes to for that matter, but it s hardly wrong to not buy into an private revelation. 

Worthy of belief but not true? Come on! If it's worthy of belief it's true. Nobody says it's part of the deposit of faith; and I am tired of things being called 'private revelation' as if that degrades it.
Oh that's only private revelation. Yeah, one that the Church has said is true (or worthy of belief, take your pick, amounts to the same thing). We have a Feast day for Our Lady of Fatima and the devotion of saints towards it. If someone wants to poo-poo Fatima and Our Lady appearing there because it's only private revelation they can deal with that on Judgement day.
Next time someone brings up that it's only private revelation I'm gonna ask if they say the Haily Mary or any other prayer besides the Our Father which is the only prayer that is part of the deposit of faith.
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#48
(08-13-2013, 02:21 PM)christulsa123 Wrote: The paradox I see in the Consecration dilemma is that while on one hand to restore the Church it needs to be done, but for it to be done will take restoring things enough throughout the hierarchy for said hierarchy to actually submit to the BVM and make the consecration in concert with the pope...

Which is why I think we have to conclude the Church failed the test in 1960, plunging the Church into the Great Apostacy and Chastisement.

A future consecration as requested wont prevent Gods wrath, IMO; rather it will bring it to an end.

This has always been how I've understood things when Our Lady said the consecration will be done by the Pope, but it will be late.  I'm just not clear how bad things will actually get before that happens.  What we know of the Third Secret of Fatima suggests things will get much worse, both spiritually and physically, before the Consecration is done.
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#49
I stay out of these fatima discussions because most "facts" presented may in fact not be.  Perhaps that is why I only learned of this today. Seems Pius XII did it in '52.

Sacro Vergente
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacro_Vergente

Fr, John Hardon is someone I admire and trust, and I have just finished reading this article..

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/...gy_014.htm

"    Dear people of Russian, health and peace in the Lord!

   While the Holy Year was happily drawing to a conclusion, after it had been given to us by a divine disposition to solemnly define the dogma of the Assumption into Heaven, body and soul, of the Holy Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, we received numerous expressions of the most lively exultation from people all over the world; many of them sent us letters in thanksgiving, in which they also earnestly begged us to consecrate the whole Russian people, which is experiencing such suffering at this moment, to the Immaculate Heart of the Virgin Mary.

These supplications were particularly pleasing to us, for if our paternal affection embraces all people, it is addressed in a particular manner to those who, although separated for the most part from the Apostolic See by the vicissitudes of history, nevertheless still retain the name of Christian, but find themselves in such a situation that it is very difficult for them to hear our voice and to know the teachings of Catholic doctrine, and that they are even pushed by deceitful and pernicious contrivances to reject faith in and even the very idea of God.

When it is a question of defending the cause of religion, the truth, and justice and Christian civilization, we certainly cannot keep quiet….Doubtless we have condemned and rejected - as the duty of our office demands - the errors which the instigators of atheistic Communism teach, or which they do their utmost to propagate, for the greatest wrong and the detriment of the citizens; but, far from rejecting the wayward, we desire their return to the straight path of the truth. Even more: we have unmasked these falsehoods, which are often adorned with a semblance of the truth, because we love you with the heart of a father and we seek your well-being.

We know that many of you preserve the Christian faith in the secret sanctuary of your own conscience….We know furthermore, and that is for us a great hope and a great consolation, that you love and honor with ardent affection the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, and that you venerate her images. We know that in the city of Moscow itself there is a temple - alas, withdrawn from divine worship - which is dedicated to the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary into heaven; and this is very clear testimony to the love which your ancestors and you yourselves bear to the Most Holy Mother of God.

So that our fervent prayers and yours should more easily be answered, and to give you a special sign of our particular benevolence, just as some years ago we consecrated the whole human race to the Immaculate Heart of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, so today we consecrate and we dedicate in a very special manner all the peoples of Russia to this Immaculate Heart…and we implore this most clement Mother to obtain from her Divine Son heavenly light for your minds, and for your souls the supernatural strength and courage by which you will be able to avert and surmount all errors and godlessness.

O Mary, while acknowledging Jesus Christ as the one true Savior, we entrust the whole human race to your Immaculate Heart. Deliver mankind from the scourges deserved for its sins, grant peace to all the world; a peace founded on truth, on justice, on freedom and on love."


Fr Hardon also mentioned the JPII '84 Consecration and he believed it was an act of decisiveness which left no doubt whether the Consecration of Russia had been done. The Berlin Wall "came down" in 1989.

I'm now convinced the consecration has been done.



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#50
(08-13-2013, 02:59 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(08-13-2013, 12:36 PM)guacamole Wrote: i just want to say that i support those of you who hold the consecrationalist faith.  you have a right to your beliefs just like anyone else.  i'm glad that you still identify as catholics.  it's nice to think of you that way.

Really?  If you have nothing to actually add to the discussion, perhaps you can just stop wasting everyone's time. 

:blush:

please don't talk to me like that!  i am somebody!
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