Ideological-Theological Spectrum of Self-Identified Catholics
#61
(08-16-2013, 12:58 PM)Meg Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 12:54 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 12:44 PM)Tenmaru Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 12:38 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I don't know where I fall on the spectrum. I  can hardly stand the EWTN/Catholic Answers version of Catholicism. They have taken control of the mentality of this country's many Catholics. There's got to be another option.

I'd say I'm progressive but there are items on that list that don't compute for me. I seriously don't know.

I also agree with Melchoir that the charismatics I know are very orthodox minded, they love Mary, wear the scapular, home school, and are highly moral people. That's liberal?

I think each line represents different things. For example, the charismatic line references liturgical ideology. One line representes political ideology. Another, church/state ideology. Another, ecumenism. Another, Council perspective. etc.

That makes sense.  The charismatics I've known could be called liturgically liberal.  However, when I think of liberal, I think primarily in terms of doctrine.  As far as doctrine goes, most charismatics in my experience have been sound.

Then there's no reason, really, for traditionalists to not become charismatics, right?

Traditionalists are not liturgically liberal.  However, I think it would be possible for a person to combine elements of charismatic spirituality with traditional practices.
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#62
(08-16-2013, 01:00 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 12:48 PM)Meg Wrote: Charismaticism is liberal in the sense that it's a novelty that didn't exist before the Council. I would think that there are otherwise plenty of orthodox-minded charismatics That doesn't make charismaticism itself Catholic in nature.

Before St. Francis mendicant orders did not exist.  Does that mean they are not really Catholic?  Did they become Catholic after they had been around for long enough to not be considered a novelty?

By the way, this novelty of mendicants was a major factor in St. Thomas Aquinas's parents opposing him becoming a Dominican.  Would you say they were correct to do so?

I never said that charismatics are not Catholic. As usual, you are distorting what I'm saying. I have said that charismaticism isn't Catholic. How many traditional priests do you know (who celebrate the TLM) who support CCR? Please state their names, so that it can be verified.
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#63
(08-16-2013, 11:00 AM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 10:49 AM)Melchior Wrote: 2)  Apparently the charismatic renewal is liberal, despite the hundreds of charismatics I know *plus* the Society of Apostolic Life I know being very orthodox.

You and I live relatively close to each other.  I wonder if this preponderance of orthodox charismatics that we have experienced is a local phenomenon.  Maybe, in other places, many of the them are liberal.

I can't remember where you live!  :)

All of Southern Ontario is a hotbed of orthodox charismatic Catholics/

One thing is for sure, we do love the Rosary and the Divine Mercy devotion.  That's not a generalization, pretty much everyone I know loves both.
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#64
(08-16-2013, 01:04 PM)Meg Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 01:00 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 12:48 PM)Meg Wrote: Charismaticism is liberal in the sense that it's a novelty that didn't exist before the Council. I would think that there are otherwise plenty of orthodox-minded charismatics That doesn't make charismaticism itself Catholic in nature.

Before St. Francis mendicant orders did not exist.  Does that mean they are not really Catholic?  Did they become Catholic after they had been around for long enough to not be considered a novelty?

By the way, this novelty of mendicants was a major factor in St. Thomas Aquinas's parents opposing him becoming a Dominican.  Would you say they were correct to do so?

I never said that charismatics are not Catholic. As usual, you are distorting what I'm saying. I have said that charismaticism isn't Catholic. How many traditional priests do you know (who celebrate the TLM) who support CCR? Please state their names, so that it can be verified.

Quick, call the diocese!
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#65
(08-16-2013, 01:05 PM)Melchior Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 01:04 PM)Meg Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 01:00 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 12:48 PM)Meg Wrote: Charismaticism is liberal in the sense that it's a novelty that didn't exist before the Council. I would think that there are otherwise plenty of orthodox-minded charismatics That doesn't make charismaticism itself Catholic in nature.

Before St. Francis mendicant orders did not exist.  Does that mean they are not really Catholic?  Did they become Catholic after they had been around for long enough to not be considered a novelty?

By the way, this novelty of mendicants was a major factor in St. Thomas Aquinas's parents opposing him becoming a Dominican.  Would you say they were correct to do so?

I never said that charismatics are not Catholic. As usual, you are distorting what I'm saying. I have said that charismaticism isn't Catholic. How many traditional priests do you know (who celebrate the TLM) who support CCR? Please state their names, so that it can be verified.

Quick, call the diocese!

No need to call the diocese. How many traditional priests (who celebrate the TLM) do you know, Melchoir, who support CCR? I think it's a fair question.
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#66
The charismatics I have met, and I have met many, are extremely orthodox, and extremely pious. There are three things they seem to do all day long: Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, Rosary, and Confession.

I am not comfortable with raising hands in the air or holding hands. This is a personal, temperamental thing. The earliest depictions we have of Christians has them with hands in the air. So I have superficial issues with them that make me go elsewhere. But the fact is that in many places, especially in the Third World, these people are very orthodox. They are also often the only pro-life voices to be heard. So I wouldn't put them all in one bag, and I wouldn't knock them.

Same goes for many other categories. I mean, for me, you would have to create a whole new category which says "Doesn't care anymore about the polemics. Goes to Trad mass when possible, NO when TLM not possible. Apart from that, does his best with prayer life and avoiding evil."

It is true that I do care about some of these things, but "Conciliar Ambiguities"? Don't care about it anymore."Quanta Cura'? Never heard of it. "FSSP"? Yep, good people, some better than others go to the masses. But do I actually KNOW the FSSP? Not really. I'm just a guy going to mass, confession, and the after-mass social stuff. "Errors of the Council"? Don't care. Where would you start? Where would it end? Better to ignore, hit reset, and have a new council in a few decades. "Anathema sit"? Is this a document? If so, never heard of it. If it is just old-fashioned papal condemnation, then . . . whatever. "SSPX"? Visited their place once. Nice priest, just like the FSSP priest. This is one of the only things I could say I "care" about here. I attend an FSSP church, and am 100% grateful for it and happy to be there. But I do care about the SSPX, because I feel they got a raw, raw, raw, raw deal in this world. A nasty deal. Yes, I am sure there are some kooks in the SSPX, but it is sooooo hypocritical for people to say this, as if  there are no kooks in FSSP hangouts, in NO parishes, or in the Vatican. In fact, we are all kooks in some sense anyway.

So anyway, I care about the down-to-earth basics of salvation. I am fortunate enough to have TLM availability. If I didn't, I would attend NO rather than nothing. I worry about my children. I see 3 possible ends to the current situation.
1. Most likely: demographic solution. In 20 years, Trad groups and orthodox NO groups of all stripes will predominate. They will have to rebuild.
2. Less likely and scary: schism and such disorder that we will all be in an emergency situation.
3. Least likely. God intervenes, asteroid or whatever, and we all repent. (almost zero likelihood in my view)

So I need a category for "Skeptical Traditional Catholic"
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#67
(08-16-2013, 01:07 PM)Meg Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 01:05 PM)Melchior Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 01:04 PM)Meg Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 01:00 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 12:48 PM)Meg Wrote: Charismaticism is liberal in the sense that it's a novelty that didn't exist before the Council. I would think that there are otherwise plenty of orthodox-minded charismatics That doesn't make charismaticism itself Catholic in nature.

Before St. Francis mendicant orders did not exist.  Does that mean they are not really Catholic?  Did they become Catholic after they had been around for long enough to not be considered a novelty?

By the way, this novelty of mendicants was a major factor in St. Thomas Aquinas's parents opposing him becoming a Dominican.  Would you say they were correct to do so?

I never said that charismatics are not Catholic. As usual, you are distorting what I'm saying. I have said that charismaticism isn't Catholic. How many traditional priests do you know (who celebrate the TLM) who support CCR? Please state their names, so that it can be verified.

Quick, call the diocese!

No need to call the diocese. How many traditional priests (who celebrate the TLM) do you know, Melchoir, who support CCR? I think it's a fair question.

Sorry, you made it sound like an inquisition.  STate names so we can verify their trad "creds".  Anyway, I know several traditional priests who support the CCR.  Unless the FSSP isn't traditional.
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#68
(08-16-2013, 01:04 PM)Meg Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 01:00 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 12:48 PM)Meg Wrote: Charismaticism is liberal in the sense that it's a novelty that didn't exist before the Council. I would think that there are otherwise plenty of orthodox-minded charismatics That doesn't make charismaticism itself Catholic in nature.

Before St. Francis mendicant orders did not exist.  Does that mean they are not really Catholic?  Did they become Catholic after they had been around for long enough to not be considered a novelty?

By the way, this novelty of mendicants was a major factor in St. Thomas Aquinas's parents opposing him becoming a Dominican.  Would you say they were correct to do so?

I never said that charismatics are not Catholic. As usual, you are distorting what I'm saying. I have said that charismaticism isn't Catholic. How many traditional priests do you know (who celebrate the TLM) who support CCR? Please state their names, so that it can be verified.

The traditional priests that I know best do not set up standards opposing what the Magisterium has taught.  I'm sure they all accept the magisterial teaching concerning the CCR.  This means they would not say that charismaticism is not Catholic, nor would they refer to it as heretical.
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#69
(08-16-2013, 01:14 PM)Melchior Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 01:07 PM)Meg Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 01:05 PM)Melchior Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 01:04 PM)Meg Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 01:00 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 12:48 PM)Meg Wrote: Charismaticism is liberal in the sense that it's a novelty that didn't exist before the Council. I would think that there are otherwise plenty of orthodox-minded charismatics That doesn't make charismaticism itself Catholic in nature.

Before St. Francis mendicant orders did not exist.  Does that mean they are not really Catholic?  Did they become Catholic after they had been around for long enough to not be considered a novelty?

By the way, this novelty of mendicants was a major factor in St. Thomas Aquinas's parents opposing him becoming a Dominican.  Would you say they were correct to do so?

I never said that charismatics are not Catholic. As usual, you are distorting what I'm saying. I have said that charismaticism isn't Catholic. How many traditional priests do you know (who celebrate the TLM) who support CCR? Please state their names, so that it can be verified.

Quick, call the diocese!

No need to call the diocese. How many traditional priests (who celebrate the TLM) do you know, Melchoir, who support CCR? I think it's a fair question.

Sorry, you made it sound like an inquisition.  STate names so we can verify their trad "creds".  Anyway, I know several traditional priests who support the CCR.  Unless the FSSP isn't traditional.

What FSSP priest supports CCR? I don't believe it.
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#70
(08-16-2013, 01:14 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 01:04 PM)Meg Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 01:00 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-16-2013, 12:48 PM)Meg Wrote: Charismaticism is liberal in the sense that it's a novelty that didn't exist before the Council. I would think that there are otherwise plenty of orthodox-minded charismatics That doesn't make charismaticism itself Catholic in nature.

Before St. Francis mendicant orders did not exist.  Does that mean they are not really Catholic?  Did they become Catholic after they had been around for long enough to not be considered a novelty?

By the way, this novelty of mendicants was a major factor in St. Thomas Aquinas's parents opposing him becoming a Dominican.  Would you say they were correct to do so?

I never said that charismatics are not Catholic. As usual, you are distorting what I'm saying. I have said that charismaticism isn't Catholic. How many traditional priests do you know (who celebrate the TLM) who support CCR? Please state their names, so that it can be verified.

The traditional priests that I know best do not set up standards opposing what the Magisterium has taught.  I'm sure they all accept the magisterial teaching concerning the CCR.  This means they would not say that charismaticism is not Catholic, nor would they refer to it as heretical.

I know of an FSSP priest who stated, during a homily, that Catholics are not to ask for or seek the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost, such as tongues, and such, and that though these gifts do of course exist, they are mainly used by priests in the confessional, like Padre Pio.
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