Orthodox Posters?
#21
(08-20-2013, 10:42 AM)Personna Wrote:
(08-20-2013, 10:27 AM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-20-2013, 10:23 AM)guacamole Wrote:
(08-20-2013, 10:20 AM)2Vermont Wrote: But I would think that it would be more likely to get that sort of stuff with a lot of players.

not sure what you mean.

btw, i added a link to my last post about how an orthodox priest who concelebrated with a catholic priest was dealt with.

I guess what I'm saying is that the Orthodox have multiple leaders (patriarchs).  We have one.  I would imagine that it would be easier for changes to happen when there are a lot of cooks in the kitchen.  Likewise, I would think that with one person keeping an eye on things, that major changes wouldn't happen.

Or maybe I don't have a clue what I'm talking about and hat is why I am not making sense....lol.

Yes, in the Orthodox Churches, we have a leader for each regional church but all the individual churches are in Communion with one another.  This is very important to the Orthodox mindset and belief.  If one Church were to start making some very radical changes that the other Churches find questionable or wrong, then the other Churches would break Communion with that one Church thus creating a schism.

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that a Patriarch or Metropolitan does not have omniscient power.  He cannot make major changes without the support of the Holy Synod of Bishops for his jurisdiction.  And a Synod of Bishops is not afraid to depose a ruling Patriarch or Metropolitan if they believe he has overstepped his authority or caused scandal.

So it's similar to a checks and balances system.  Interesting.
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#22
(08-20-2013, 10:45 AM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: From what I can relay from my own experience about the Orthodox, they have expressed that if one of their patriarchs had attempted to do what Paul VI did to the liturgy and rotes of the Church, he would've been deposed and possibly worse.

The Orthodox priests I've talked to think what's been done to the Roman rites is a travesty.

For that reason alone, they'll probably never re-unite with us.
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#23
(08-20-2013, 11:03 AM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-20-2013, 10:45 AM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: From what I can relay from my own experience about the Orthodox, they have expressed that if one of their patriarchs had attempted to do what Paul VI did to the liturgy and rotes of the Church, he would've been deposed and possibly worse.

The Orthodox priests I've talked to think what's been done to the Roman rites is a travesty.

For that reason alone, they'll probably never re-unite with us.

That reason and others. Why would they want part of the chaos in the Roman rite?

Besides,  the post conciliar Church says they don't have convert. They're fine where they're at....
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#24
By the way, Blessed Pius IX saying "I am tradition" was not an infallible statement. He never stopped being a sinful human being and his personal opinions (or, I think more likely in the instance of this quotation, his angry hyperbole) were as flawed as those of other holy sinners.

Papal Infallibility has a very limited area of application. It proclaims the truth that the Catholic Church can know the Truth and that She proclaims the Truth and is free from error, in the person of the Pope,  "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church".

The Pope can only proclaim infalliibly what the Church Herself already believes.

This dogma has to do with addressing modernism and (today) relativism and post-modernism which claim that there is no truth and even if there were, we can never know it. In the dogma of Papal Infallibility, the Church boldly says, NO to this.

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#25
First of all, thank you all who have written so far. I am lost in this conversation, but I find it fascinating.

My question is this:
Catholics believe that the Orthodox have erred in a number of doctrinal issues, such as divorce, contraception and papal primacy.
Yet it appears they resisted liturgical errors thus far.
Right now, the opinion seems to be that having a decentralized authority led to liturgical purity.
So why did the decentralization not protect the Orthodox from contraception, divorce, etc?

To an Orthodox, this might sound offensive, but I mean no offence. I am trying, instead, to see why there seem always to be 2 imperfect sides to one coin: liturgy and doctrine. Papal primacy and authority seem to have protected us from contraception and divorce. But was it papal primacy or something else? And was it decentralization that led to divorce and contraception in the Orthodox church, or something else?
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#26
(08-20-2013, 12:40 PM)maldon Wrote: So why did the decentralization not protect the Orthodox from contraception, divorce, etc?

maldon, google "orthodoxy" and "economia," at least for a good understanding of what the orthodox approach is to issues like this.  economia means something like bending the normal rule for pastoral reasons.  it is integral to the tradition of the eastern church and is employed with regard to things like fasting and certain moral issues.
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#27
(08-20-2013, 12:40 PM)maldon Wrote: First of all, thank you all who have written so far. I am lost in this conversation, but I find it fascinating.

My question is this:
Catholics believe that the Orthodox have erred in a number of doctrinal issues, such as divorce, contraception and papal primacy.
Yet it appears they resisted liturgical errors thus far.
Right now, the opinion seems to be that having a decentralized authority led to liturgical purity.
So why did the decentralization not protect the Orthodox from contraception, divorce, etc?

To an Orthodox, this might sound offensive, but I mean no offence. I am trying, instead, to see why there seem always to be 2 imperfect sides to one coin: liturgy and doctrine. Papal primacy and authority seem to have protected us from contraception and divorce. But was it papal primacy or something else? And was it decentralization that led to divorce and contraception in the Orthodox church, or something else?

I was noticing this as well.  It is fascinating.  Perhaps liturgy is easier to keep the same.  It doesn't affect our lives on a day to day basis.  OTOH, divorce, contraception, etc affects daily lives (including those of a married clergy ;-)
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#28
Maldon, the actual situation in Orthodoxy regarding divorce is not as bad as it seems to Catholics when they first hear about it.  From the Orthodox perspective, what makes the sacrament valid is being officiated by a priest, not by the consent of the two persons being married.  That consent is necessary, but what makes it sacramental is the blessing of the Church, not the consent.  So any marriage officiated by an Orthodox priest is considered to have been a real marriage.  This is why annulments make no sense to them.  They would say 'um, we were at the church for the ceremony, we saw it take place with our own eyes, and they have kids together.  Of course they are really married!'  Now, when it comes to remarriage, the persons attempting to get married must request the permission of the bishop.  He reviews each request on a case by case basis, and the bishop, from what I have heard, usually does not grant his permission for a second marriage to take place.  The look into the facts, and reject the request on much of the same criteria that a marriage tribunal would recognize a prior marriage as being invalid.  So, even though the definition is different, effectively, the Orthodox practice is virtually the same.  The prior marriage is reviewed by the bishop, and permission is usually only granted for a second marriage if the situation is the same as what we would consider null.
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#29
(08-20-2013, 12:42 PM)guacamole Wrote:
(08-20-2013, 12:40 PM)maldon Wrote: So why did the decentralization not protect the Orthodox from contraception, divorce, etc?

maldon, google "orthodoxy" and "economia," at least for a good understanding of what the orthodox approach is to issues like this.  economia means something like bending the normal rule for pastoral reasons.  it is integral to the tradition of the eastern church and is employed with regard to things like fasting and certain moral issues.

Guacamole,

I was wondering, what doctrine (s) of the Roman Catholic Church do you not accept, and why, that caused you to join the Eastern Orthodox Church and later the Old Catholic Church?
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#30
[video=youtube]lwPVSWzCqgI[/video]
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