Orthodox Posters?
From the perspective of a non-Christian convert, the differences are nearly idiotic.
It's like giving your two kids a chore to do together, but instead of getting the job done, they're arguing over who's in charge.
Arguing isn't getting the job done. Working together gets the job done.
It seems staggeringly obvious to me that both sides are suffering without each other. Where EO is all over the map, RC has it down. Where RC is failing is where EO is thriving. We need each other.
What has happened is a divorce. A dismemberment of one flesh.  And look where we are: still in desperate need of each other, still complimentary to each other, but both too prideful to just admit that and come back together again.
In truth, the body of Christ cannot be separated from itself because of apostolic succession. Literally, thank God for that!
Yes, there are going to be differences because people and cultures and attitudes are different, but Christ established his church in such a way that no schism can actually exist within the mystical body of Christ. Honestly, sometimes, the Lord's foresight and understanding of humanity astonishes me. He knew that if He made the church dependent on men, it would fail. It had to be stronger than the pride or miniscule power of mankind.
Thankfully, God knows we are all weak and kind of stupid, especially me.
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(08-25-2013, 04:11 AM)PurposefulMother Wrote: From the perspective of a non-Christian convert, the differences are nearly idiotic.
It's like giving your two kids a chore to do together, but instead of getting the job done, they're arguing over who's in charge.
Arguing isn't getting the job done. Working together gets the job done.
It seems staggeringly obvious to me that both sides are suffering without each other. Where EO is all over the map, RC has it down. Where RC is failing is where EO is thriving. We need each other.
What has happened is a divorce. A dismemberment of one flesh.  And look where we are: still in desperate need of each other, still complimentary to each other, but both too prideful to just admit that and come back together again.
In truth, the body of Christ cannot be separated from itself because of apostolic succession. Literally, thank God for that!
Yes, there are going to be differences because people and cultures and attitudes are different, but Christ established his church in such a way that no schism can actually exist within the mystical body of Christ. Honestly, sometimes, the Lord's foresight and understanding of humanity astonishes me. He knew that if He made the church dependent on men, it would fail. It had to be stronger than the pride or miniscule power of mankind.
Thankfully, God knows we are all weak and kind of stupid, especially me.


...and the West has gone off way to far wanting to "reason" anything, and the East keeps everything a "mystery". putting these two back together in their proper proportions is the "answer".

tim
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(08-25-2013, 06:55 AM)Tim Wrote:
(08-25-2013, 04:11 AM)PurposefulMother Wrote: From the perspective of a non-Christian convert, the differences are nearly idiotic.
It's like giving your two kids a chore to do together, but instead of getting the job done, they're arguing over who's in charge.
Arguing isn't getting the job done. Working together gets the job done.
It seems staggeringly obvious to me that both sides are suffering without each other. Where EO is all over the map, RC has it down. Where RC is failing is where EO is thriving. We need each other.
What has happened is a divorce. A dismemberment of one flesh.  And look where we are: still in desperate need of each other, still complimentary to each other, but both too prideful to just admit that and come back together again.
In truth, the body of Christ cannot be separated from itself because of apostolic succession. Literally, thank God for that!
Yes, there are going to be differences because people and cultures and attitudes are different, but Christ established his church in such a way that no schism can actually exist within the mystical body of Christ. Honestly, sometimes, the Lord's foresight and understanding of humanity astonishes me. He knew that if He made the church dependent on men, it would fail. It had to be stronger than the pride or miniscule power of mankind.
Thankfully, God knows we are all weak and kind of stupid, especially me.


...and the West has gone off way to far wanting to "reason" anything, and the East keeps everything a "mystery". putting these two back together in their proper proportions is the "answer".

tim

I think the fact that we have regular orthodox posters bespeaks of the truth of the church. We really aren't in any practical or mystical way truly divided. Plus, the laity seem to be pushing for reunification. I don't think this perceived split will last. I personally do not recognize any schism.
I have found no evidence to support a true schism, so I just don't recognize that it has ever occurred. My evidence for my argument is apostolic succession. That's why saint terese Avila still had valid sacraments with a crappy priest. His worthiness or opinions have no bearing on his ability to convey sacraments. His power, just like the powers bestowed on bishops and priests at any time are not dependent upon their personalities or their humanity. The power resides as always in God.
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I don't know if we could say there is unity in faith between East and West - yet. I have hope that in the next few centuries we might get real close to reunion, however.
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(08-25-2013, 12:53 PM)PurposefulMother Wrote:
(08-25-2013, 06:55 AM)Tim Wrote:
(08-25-2013, 04:11 AM)PurposefulMother Wrote: From the perspective of a non-Christian convert, the differences are nearly idiotic.
It's like giving your two kids a chore to do together, but instead of getting the job done, they're arguing over who's in charge.
Arguing isn't getting the job done. Working together gets the job done.
It seems staggeringly obvious to me that both sides are suffering without each other. Where EO is all over the map, RC has it down. Where RC is failing is where EO is thriving. We need each other.
What has happened is a divorce. A dismemberment of one flesh.  And look where we are: still in desperate need of each other, still complimentary to each other, but both too prideful to just admit that and come back together again.
In truth, the body of Christ cannot be separated from itself because of apostolic succession. Literally, thank God for that!
Yes, there are going to be differences because people and cultures and attitudes are different, but Christ established his church in such a way that no schism can actually exist within the mystical body of Christ. Honestly, sometimes, the Lord's foresight and understanding of humanity astonishes me. He knew that if He made the church dependent on men, it would fail. It had to be stronger than the pride or miniscule power of mankind.
Thankfully, God knows we are all weak and kind of stupid, especially me.


...and the West has gone off way to far wanting to "reason" anything, and the East keeps everything a "mystery". putting these two back together in their proper proportions is the "answer".

tim

I think the fact that we have regular orthodox posters bespeaks of the truth of the church. We really aren't in any practical or mystical way truly divided. Plus, the laity seem to be pushing for reunification. I don't think this perceived split will last. I personally do not recognize any schism.
I have found no evidence to support a true schism, so I just don't recognize that it has ever occurred. My evidence for my argument is apostolic succession. That's why saint terese Avila still had valid sacraments with a crappy priest. His worthiness or opinions have no bearing on his ability to convey sacraments. His power, just like the powers bestowed on bishops and priests at any time are not dependent upon their personalities or their humanity. The power resides as always in God.





Excellent post! This is the very idea that I am trying to express. There has been no schism, there never has been, the orthodox churches are part of the one catholic church. If indeed the Orthodox churches only have part of the truth then to even respect them and their saints is to be fighting against "Extra ecclesiam nullam sallus." If indeed the Orthodox churches went in schism then they are indeed "schismatic." But this is not the case because there has never been a schism! Otherwise why would Saint Pius X allow for the commemoration of post "schism" saints (post Council of Florence saints too)? Why has there been such close connections between the churches and why have not the eastern orthodox EVER officially deny any catholic dogmas? Even if they wanted to they couldn't because of the organization of their church. Why has there been continuous intercommunion ever since the supposed schism? Why did Ion Mota and Vasile Marin (Romanian Orthodox Christians) gladly give up their lives for the Nationalists side in the Spanish Civil War? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that during the Great Western Schism there were saints on both sides of the divide even though the popes had formally excommunicated each other (I'm not sure actually). There have been all sorts of apparent "schisms" in history which were never ACTUAL schisms. There are many questions like this, some more powerful. The essay "The myth of schism" by David Bentley Hart discusses these matters in more depth. In any case, I feel that the recognition of the nonexistence of the schism can go some way in rectifiying the post conciliar mess insofar as the Orthodox Christians I have been reading in books and articles etc. are utterly horrified by the Novus Ordo and its abuses (perhaps not the actual Novus Ordo really...but the abuses certainly...though I acknowledge that there are actual ambiguities and confusions within a proper Novus Ordo though nothing heterodox (I hope at least, being, for now an outsider looking at the catholic church and coming to the conclusion that it is the One True Church I want to see things in the best light  :)). Additionally, I cannot help but notice that, even after communism, the eastern orthodox countries are far more traditional than the western catholic countries--many of which have apostasized to various degrees.
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I believe that the answer to the question "Are the Orthodox in schism?" is found in what the Catholic Church says.
The Catholic Church says that the so-called "Orthodox churches" are in schism.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11329a.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13535a.htm

That said, I would agree that on some level many Orthodox are united to the Catholic Church in belief and practice, even more so than many if not most Catholics. 

I think the only way to end the schism is for the Orthodox to formally enter the Catholic Church.

And for Roman Catholics who feel drawn to Eastern Christian spirituality, I do not believe that can be really satisfied by turning to Orthodox churches or sources, but rather to Eastern Catholic churches and sources.

Also, it seems to me that traditional Catholics in the Roman rite may be forgetting about the Eastern Catholic Churches who, compared to the Latin Church, are preserving Sacred Tradition.
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