"Churches" help Catholics learn Baptist doctrine
#11
I have prior experience with Baptists trying to make the Catholic people become Protestant.
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#12

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The N.O. wishy-washy Masses don't focus on love at all. They don't express a love for God in any way better than the TLM does, and hand-holding at the Our Father isn't "love" (though most everyone likes the warm-fuzzies. We don't have to screw up our liturgy to get those AFTER the Mass, however). 



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And true love is sacrifice.  People recognize it when they see it, but they don't see it much anywhere in American culture. 
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#13
(08-22-2013, 11:07 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(08-22-2013, 07:21 PM)2Vermont Wrote: I guess what I'm not following is the  idea that the focus is not on love and that is why these Catholics go to the Baptist church.  That somehow we're missing that in our Church. If Catholics didn't jump ship in the old days is it because the focus was on love?  Because based on the NO wishy washy masses,  I would think that the current mass focuses more on "love".  But then why would Catholics go to the Baptists?

I guess I'm just not following your logic here.  Something's not adding up here.

I didn't say it was just a lack of a focus on the Gospel message at a deep level, but also the banal liturgy -- i.e., the Novus Ordo Mass and the other watered-down sacramental rites. Catholics didn't jump ship in the old days because they had good liturgy and catechesis enough to know that Christ founded A Church and that that Church is the Catholic Church.

The N.O. wishy-washy Masses don't focus on love at all. They don't express a love for God in any way better than the TLM does, and hand-holding at the Our Father isn't "love" (though most everyone likes the warm-fuzzies. We don't have to screw up our liturgy to get those AFTER the Mass, however). 

If things were done right according to my thinking, we'd have the TLM and ALL of the sacramental rites offered in the traditional way, and we'd have perfectly sound teaching of traditional Catholic doctrine (defined here: traditional Catholicism), AND we'd have a LOT more fellowship and socializing AFTER and IN BETWEEN those 100% trad Masses, along with more groups offering acts of charity -- the corporal works of mercy, etc.  Right now, there's nothing but banal liturgy, weak doctrine, and not a thing telling Catholics that Christ expects us to be, WANTS us to be Catholic. As things are now, the Prot mega-churches are a lot more entertaining, have lots more opportunities for fellowship, and are as "good as" the true Church according to what it seems many priests teach, so why not swim back across the Tiber and party?

OK, gotcha.  In that case, I agree with you.
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#14
Before you do anything with Baptist "doctrine" you need to learn Catholic doctrine.
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#15
I wonder how many of those Baptist churches have a sign outside saying misa en espanol?
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#16
Quote: ... people do join the church and are baptized

Impugning the known truth.  Re-baptizing is a sin against the Holy Ghost which cannot be pardoned in this life or the next.  Many a Baptist pastor should know this but disregard it anyway.  What their fate is known only to Jesus.  And to say that there is an accord among Protestants and Catholics to accept each other's Baptism when they don't accept ours? 

Quote:Scripture makes it clear that Jesus is the only mediator to God

Baptists, Fundamentalists, and sola biblia Protestants know only verses that apply to their belief or else they would know that Jesus had said: 

"No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him" (John 6:44)  So then, how can they say they have Jesus as the Mediator when they are not called to Him by the Father?

"And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.  After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him."  (John 6:66)  Peter was the only one who gave the correct answer when Jesus asked the Apostles, "Who do you say I am?"  Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.  And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven."  (Matthew 16:66)  It was the Father who drew and called Peter to come to Christ.

The Jesus who Baptist follow and believe in is NOT the Jesus of the Catholics.

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#17
(08-23-2013, 11:56 AM)Vincentius Wrote:
Quote: ... people do join the church and are baptized

Impugning the known truth.  Re-baptizing is a sin against the Holy Ghost which cannot be pardoned in this life or the next.  Many a Baptist pastor should know this but disregard it anyway.  What their fate is known only to Jesus.  And to say that there is an accord among Protestants and Catholics to accept each other's Baptism when they don't accept ours? 

Quote:Scripture makes it clear that Jesus is the only mediator to God

Baptists, Fundamentalists, and sola biblia Protestants know only verses that apply to their belief or else they would know that Jesus had said: 

"No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him" (John 6:44)   So then, how can they say they have Jesus as the Mediator when they are not called to Him by the Father?

"And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.  After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him."  (John 6:66)  Peter was the only one who gave the correct answer when Jesus asked the Apostles, "Who do you say I am?"   Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.  And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven."  (Matthew 16:66)  It was the Father who drew and called Peter to come to Christ.

The Jesus who Baptist follow and believe in is NOT the Jesus of the Catholics.

So one cannot truly repent from such a sin, and have it absolved?
Wouldn't presumption and despair be under such a category?
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#18
{quote]So one cannot truly repent from such a sin, and have it absolved?  Wouldn't presumption and despair be under such a category?[/quote]

There's the Fourth Sin:  Final impenitence.  This is what makes the others unforgivable.
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#19
Baptist have doctrines ???

Isn't that like saying that Baptist have liturgies  :grin:
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#20
As others have said, when you make your liturgy look like a protestant liturgy, you shouldn't be surprised when people leave your church for something easier.  I mean, what can be easier than walking down the aisle, saying the sinners prayer and getting your ticket to heaven punched?  Makes us all seem foolish with our penance, fasting, almsgiving, confession, attendance at Sunday/Holy Day liturgies.

I became an Eastern rite Catholic because it still looks like a Patristic era liturgy and it requires much of me in the areas of prayer and fasting.  It makes me sad when people leave the true faith for some watered down protestant version.
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