blistering critique of US Bishops
#11
(08-25-2013, 08:03 PM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-25-2013, 07:59 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(08-25-2013, 07:17 PM)2Vermont Wrote:
(08-25-2013, 04:45 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote:
(08-24-2013, 09:02 AM)Basilios Wrote: Too uncharitable. I prefer love <3

While I know you are being sarcastic, I actually think you are correct.  I agree with pretty much everything Voris says, but this is one of those cases that will end up with people not hearing the message due to the messenger, and the style in which the message is sent.  There are times for ranting and condemnation, and there are times for sober reflection.  This seemed to be a topic for the latter. 

As for sending this to your bishop, as suggested above, that is a terrible idea.  I could not think of a thing to do which would more quickly antagonize a bishop towards traditional minded Catholics then sending them this rant.  They will likely see it or hear about it regardless.

I don't know.  My priest has been trying to get the approval of a weekly TLM from our bishop for months now. I'm pretty sure he is handling it charitably, etc....to no avail.  WHY IS THAT?  Why is it that Catholics must beg for the Latin Mass?  Honestly, I think we are far beyond the point of tiptoeing around and worrying about antagonizing our NO bishops.

Your priest does not need permission to celebrate a TLM. That was pretty much the entire point of SP. 

And, if you want to turn all bishops soundly against the traditional Catholic movement, which is still growing rather than shrinking despite what some might have us think, then go right ahead.  Forwarding videos like this to them would be a surefire way to get it done, and will go a long way towards proving the point of the modernists who have claimed for decades that the TLM is divisive and should not be allowed.  However, I hope you and the poster I responded to above might consider the opinions of the rest of traditional Catholics who know that pissing off the entire conference of bishops, many more of whom then even a few years ago are sympathetic to our cause, is not going to do any of us a bit of good. 

One can call out the bishops for their mistakes and get the point across without being an ass in the process.  While I agree with much, if not most, of what Voris puts out, he has yet to figure that part out. 

I know you are frustrated, but lashing out at the bishops, even when they deserve it, is not going to fix it. 

As to the bolded, then why can't he say the TLM weekly?  Or does SP only say that you don't need permission to say it within certain limits?

As to the rest, you have your opinion.  I have mine.  And I tend to think that more and more trads are leaning more my way lately.  Because your way isn't working.

From 2002 - 2007, there was an increase of only 55 TLM's offered in the entire country in any given week. From 2007 - 2012, it increased 240 per week.  That is a 436% faster rate of gain than in the previous 5 years.  Is it enough?  Of course not. I won't be happy until everyone who wants access to the TLM has it on a daily and weekly basis.  However, if we can keep even half that rate of increase going, in another 5 years the number of TLM's being offered per week would almost triple what it is now.

Not even 3 years ago, I would never have dreamed that we would see US Bishops openly celebrating pontifical high Masses outside of ordinations for the FSSP, etc.  Yet, now we see them with some regularity.  We also see young and holy Bishops talking about the importance of reverent liturgy, sacred music, doing away with the spirit of Vatican II, etc. 

We also have to take into consideration that thousands of priests have sought out instruction in the TLM since Benedict XVI's Motu Proprio (yes thousands, the Canons Regular of St. John Cantius claim to have taught approx. one-thousand on their own in the first 5 years since Summorum Pontificum).  That means that many of them are likely saying the TLM for their private Masses, and this could easily lead to the offering of more Masses in parishes, etc. going forward if and when demand increases.  In the 5 years prior to SP being promulgated, the Canons Regular claim there were only a few priests a year seeking such training.  That's an astronomical increase in the number of priests trained to say the TLM, and it shows no sign of slowing down. 

The bottom line is that 50 years of nonsense isn't going to go away overnight.  We need to pray that HH Pope Francis continues to appoint bishops who are sympathetic and even outright supportive of tradition.  If he does, the old guard will be resigning soon, and things could increase at an even faster rate.  Again, is it as fast as I would prefer?  No.  Is it as sweeping as I would prefer?  Absolutely not. 

I promise you that I am every bit as frustrated as you are.  I believe however that we have to be careful in how we interact with our priests and bishops.  The last thing we can afford to do is to have the Bishops start reporting to the Pope that the TLM is causing divisiveness in their parishes and dioceses.   The old guard of liberals who are trying desperately to hold onto what they gained after Vatican II would love to be able to report that to Rome.  They are openly hostile to the TLM and would love any legitimate excuse to complain about it.  Them doing so would pretty much kill any progress we have made, and destroy any chance of further gains, not to mention proving every liberal and modernist correct in their assessment of us and the TLM in the process. 
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#12
Wasn't it the Pope himself who disallowed the TLM for the FFI?  Or did I miss something there?  Also, why would it be such a battle for my parish priest to say the TLM weekly if he, as you say, doesn't need permission from his bishop?  And I'm no longer "frustrated".  I'm angry.  More and more I view "allowed" TLM's in the VII Church as just a bone thrown to the Trads to keep them quiet....to keep them from speaking up as Voris does.  If any of us think it needs a little softening around the edges, one could preface it with their own words in an email. I happen to like my bishop for the most part, but I it definitely seems as if there is this unwritten rule among the bishops not to allow the TLM to go "too far".
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#13

Maybe your priest is using the "I need permission from the Bishop" as an excuse because he doesn't want to offer the TLM. I don't know the man (and now that I've said that, would appreciate your not naming him), but -- stranger things have happened. Ask your Bishop yourself and see what the deal is, whether your priest is allowed to offer the TLM. And get it in writing. Send him the relevant documents so he won't have to go searching for them (Summorum, etc.)/
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#14
(08-26-2013, 08:58 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: Maybe your priest is using the "I need permission from the Bishop" as an excuse because he doesn't want to offer the TLM. I don't know the man (and now that I've said that, would appreciate your not naming him), but -- stranger things have happened. Ask your Bishop yourself and see what the deal is, whether your priest is allowed to offer the TLM. And get it in writing. Send him the relevant documents so he won't have to go searching for them (Summorum, etc.)/

No, that is definitely not the case.  He already offers it monthly.  It was quite clear from his face that he was upset that he could not announce that he would be offering it on a weekly basis.  I have been considering contacting the Bishop about it but not because I think the priest isn't doing all that he can do get it.  Part of me thinks that if a traditional priest can't convince the Bishop, who am I to think I could.
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#15
Just an observation and a little more. I hope those having difficulties getting a TLM are offering it up, because that could be why others reflected in those numbers are getting theirs.

tim
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#16
I have the opinion, based on a recent past priests, that some do not want to do the work it would take  to do the Latin Mass.  My priest expressed his dismay at having to learn any of it or sit through such long ordinations.  Some of them are of the age they just don't want to put themselves out. I have also wondered if Pride will not allow some to admit they cannot learn the Latin, or the Traditional Mass at all and insecurity gets blustered off as being a legitimate choice.  That is just my opinion.  There are no TLMs around here under  a two hour drive.  My diocese has one indult Latin Mass that is twenty some years old, and my bishop appears to think that it suffices for all of us.  I get very discouraged, too.  Maybe offering it up is a good idea, as Tim said.    I do not see any way other than a TLM to teach people the sacredness of the Eurcharist, True Presence, etc;  Getting all that from a NO, especially for people who do not invest  time in their own education, is a real stretch!  Sorry for the rant, a bit off topic.  I don't know much about Michael Voris, but I think I will be investigating just what he has to say.  I had always heard bad things about Fisheaters, too, but since reading here, have found more kindred spirits than I ever had at CAF.  After the thread about CAF I see how it works.  I could never figure out why what I believed to be Church teaching could get so off base over there and I was ultimately confused over and over.  I never seem to see agendas.
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#17
(08-26-2013, 09:34 PM)Jeanannemarie Wrote: I have the opinion, based on a recent past priests, that some do not want to do the work it would take  to do the Latin Mass.  My priest expressed his dismay at having to learn any of it or sit through such long ordinations.  Some of them are of the age they just don't want to put themselves out. I have also wondered if Pride will not allow some to admit they cannot learn the Latin, or the Traditional Mass at all and insecurity gets blustered off as being a legitimate choice.  That is just my opinion.  There are no TLMs around here under  a two hour drive.  My diocese has one indult Latin Mass that is twenty some years old, and my bishop appears to think that it suffices for all of us.  I get very discouraged, too.  Maybe offering it up is a good idea, as Tim said.    I do not see any way other than a TLM to teach people the sacredness of the Eurcharist, True Presence, etc;  Getting all that from a NO, especially for people who do not invest  time in their own education, is a real stretch!  Sorry for the rant, a bit off topic.  I don't know much about Michael Voris, but I think I will be investigating just what he has to say.  I had always heard bad things about Fisheaters, too, but since reading here, have found more kindred spirits than I ever had at CAF.  After the thread about CAF I see how it works.  I could never figure out why what I believed to be Church teaching could get so off base over there and I was ultimately confused over and over.  I never seem to see agendas.

Many of us are in a position where there is no TLM, or reverent liturgy of any kind, within a reasonable distance.  The closest NO Mass with a reverent liturgy is 90 minutes away from me, and the closest TLM is 2+ hours.  I am stuck every weekend with happy clappy music, altar middle-aged women, and an army of EMHC's.  I know others here on FE are in the same boat.  One solution would be to take part in what Taylor Marshall called "The Great Catholic Migration of the 21st Century".  http://taylormarshall.com/2013/01/are-yo...holic.html

The other option is to try to organize some like minded parishioners and submit a formal request to your pastor for the TLM. 
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