Which form of government is the best?
#91
Which form? Monarchy. However, there has to be a system of checks and balances, i.e. a fairly strong nobility and a judicial system that binds both sovereign and subjects. The Church - state relationship has to be clearly defined as well with the supremacy of the Church secured.
A certain subsidiarity is needed for the governing of provinces, here a limited democratic system can and should be promoted with elections for aldermen, sheriffs, mayors and maybe even provincial representatives (with advisory capacity only) at the court.
An elected monarch however, would be out of the question. It just brings us back to where we are now. Unless the electors can be limited in some way e.g. a council of nobles. Still favor the hereditary system but with the Roman / Japanese corporation twist, i.e. the succession is not limited to the firstborn of the royal family but the sovereign can name the successor either from his own offspring or through adopting a worthy candidate. Worked for imperial Rome and is current practice in some of the bigger Japanese "family" firms.

A shared morality and religion is essential. While other religions and sects can be tolerated the state must be confessional.

I'd agree with Tim about the connection between contraception, abortion on demand and the sexual revolution. However, I think the roots go deeper and are earlier than that, going back at least to legalizing divorce.
Reply
#92
I dunno. Probably the question should be rephrased (seeing that governance is a necessary evil): "Which form of government is the least bad?"

Presently, here in Italy anyway, the Mafia would be an improvement. The "pizzo" (protection racket) is far lower than the tax rate. The dons meet in secluded restaurants and divvy up territories, just like the politicos, but at least they don't have mainstream medias prettifying things for them.

The Quirinale presidential complex (presently occupied by an ex-Stalinist in his nineties, costs more than the French palace and way more than Buckingham palace...

The Mafia practices subsidiarity, the Italian govt. follows the dictates of ideologically driven strangers (quaquaraqua) up somewhere in a cold and dreary northern European flatland.

The Mafia is not too keen on gay marriage or adoptions... or abortions...

Mah... I'm not defending the Mafia... but at least as villains thieves and scoundrels they're better than the present crop of politicos... First of all they know they're sinners and doing bad things... The politicians think they're working for the good of the country...
Reply
#93
(09-30-2013, 02:14 PM)Geremia Wrote: Has anyone mentioned going back to judges?

The Israelites wanted kings just because neighboring nations had them, and God conceded kings to them, clearly understanding that judges were the best form of government.

Being ruled by judges seems very similar to how the Church rules her subjects.

I think we have that already. In the U.S., the judicial branch of government is allowed to run wild and do anything it passes. America is already run by judges.
Reply
#94
(11-08-2013, 05:37 AM)jake-the-rake Wrote: I dunno. Probably the question should be rephrased (seeing that governance is a necessary evil): "Which form of government is the least bad?"

Presently, here in Italy anyway, the Mafia would be an improvement. The "pizzo" (protection racket) is far lower than the tax rate. The dons meet in secluded restaurants and divvy up territories, just like the politicos, but at least they don't have mainstream medias prettifying things for them.

The Quirinale presidential complex (presently occupied by an ex-Stalinist in his nineties, costs more than the French palace and way more than Buckingham palace...

The Mafia practices subsidiarity, the Italian govt. follows the dictates of ideologically driven strangers (quaquaraqua) up somewhere in a cold and dreary northern European flatland.

The Mafia is not too keen on gay marriage or adoptions... or abortions...

Mah... I'm not defending the Mafia... but at least as villains thieves and scoundrels they're better than the present crop of politicos... First of all they know they're sinners and doing bad things... The politicians think they're working for the good of the country...

I'd like to add to this. Back before the pill was legalized, Chicago had a hybrid of government. The Mafia and the Pols ruled.  The mafia kept the violence down to their guys, and murders were infrequent among the people. The Mafia controlled the hookers and the gays, and the drugs and gambling, and kept them and their business in specific places. The thing both shared is to get something done you had to know someone. And everybody knew someone. Call them a godfather or like today here they are called rabbis, but it was human scale. The lines of authority were blurred, and the Police worked for both, and order was kept. 

If your son needed a job, and couldn't get one,he went to a local pol and got one. If you needed new garbage cans you went to a local pol and he had the city deliver them. If you wanted to place a bet you went to the local candy store and placed it. If you had a real problem you went to the local pol and he'd send you up the line until you got to the guy that could fix it. But you needed the local guy's "blessing" or it was not going to get fixed. In short this was subsidiarity in action, and the mafia with the pols played within the lines.

My grandfather was a "bookie" and one of his books was close to Holy Name Cathedral, and the  then Police HQ. Our best customers were the priests and the cops. My uncle who ran it, served martinis and appetizers for free to keep them there. Much more was talked about there than penances for confession, giving speeding tickets, and betting. One of my Grandfather's partners Domenico had a daughter, and she married a Police Sargent. Every body knew his wife was the daughter of a Mafiatore, and they knew he was a Sargent. It was a two way street. In a limited way they ruled together.

tim
Reply
#95
A government that best puts into practice the demands made upon it by the Higher Authority. I know for sure one democratic western government is not the model. It has gone beyond it's role has assigned authority, and now practices authoritism. It's actions are a parallel manifest of the individual entity who has gone material and secular and no longer leads a life shared with God. The government entity is devoid of any collective conscience that could only be honed through submitting to the will and trusting the Authority. It falls out of friendship with the Father and is now disposed in capital sin, the good it attempts not finding favor with Him.

If there were a good department of government to gauge it's qualification of a good government is in Justice, where the three processes are to be followed, in keeping with Mat 15 and 2 Cor 2,6, this being the third of three, the most difficult and requiring absolute trust in God....Forgiveness. Arrest,Punishment, and Forgiveness which is substantiated by following through with the offender's restoration of state(Emerich_de_Vattel, Art 170-171, and others.) Another it could be said is the Military, can be gauged by it's efforts to diplomacy, it's patience, whether it follows the correct protocols in the avoidance of war. Is it collectively sincere?, that is, are military measures being used to favor one party or interest group or an unrelated excuse the general population is not aware of. These also could be gauged.

It is an extensive subject and not one aspect could be said to be the prime gauge.
Reply
#96
Someone linked to St. Thomas's Letter to King of Cyprus (De Regno), but no one has quoted this most relevant passage of his Summa:
Summa I-II q. 105 a. 1 c. Wrote:Unde optima ordinatio principum est in aliqua civitate vel regno, in qua unus praeficitur secundum virtutem qui omnibus praesit; et sub ipso sunt aliqui principantes secundum virtutem; et tamen talis principatus ad omnes pertinet, tum quia ex omnibus eligi possunt, tum quia etiam ab omnibus eliguntur. Talis enim est optima politia, bene commixta ex regno, inquantum unus praeest; et aristocratia, inquantum multi principantur secundum virtutem; et ex democratia, idest potestate populi, inquantum ex popularibus possunt eligi principes, et ad populum pertinet electio principum.

Accordingly, the best form of government is in a state or kingdom, where one is given the power to preside over all; while under him are others having governing powers: and yet a government of this kind is shared by all, both because all are eligible to govern, and because the rules are chosen by all. For this is the best form of polity, being partly kingdom, since there is one at the head of all; partly aristocracy, in so far as a number of persons are set in authority; partly democracy, i.e. government by the people, in so far as the rulers can be chosen from the people, and the people have the right to choose their rulers.

cf. this three-part series from The Distributist Review:
Reply
#97
(11-08-2013, 04:54 AM)Dom Hamberg Wrote: The Church - state relationship has to be clearly defined as well with the supremacy of the Church secured.

This leaves out the British system. The head of the Church of England(I think Baptist too, not sure here) is the Queen.
The British system is the first that adamantly adopts authoritarionism as a system by it's proclamation of this dual role. It
leaves one to think how it could in this disposition ever find a way to restore it's friendship with the Father.
Reply
#98
I know I dissent from many of my fellow trads on this one, but I believe the Republic is the greatest form of temporal government, and I believe it would be possible to craft a Catholic state which functions as a Republic without a temporal monarch. I completely reject the notion of any monarch aside from Christ the King and the powers of the papacy.
Reply
#99
The traddy attitude does seem to tend towards monarchy. Though there are apparently some kind of anarchist ones out there; Christ the king as only ruler and a free for all under Him, or something like judges from before the OT kings..

Personally I think a monarchy best reflects the monarchical nature of God as ruler of all creation and is generally preferable. Christ is king of kings according to the Apocalypse, analogical to how various medieval European kings and princes would be rulers of their territory but acknowledge the supreme authority of the emperor.
At the same time there has always been Catholic republics, the Swiss never really had anything else if I remember correctly, nor was the 'Most Serene Republic  of Venice' ever anything but Catholic and republican.

Reply
I think some are under the illusion that humans have unlimited control over the form of government, but in the end there's always natural law, which includes the fact there will always be rulers and the ruled, just like in natural things there's always active and passive powers.

So, since Christ, who created natural law, is King, we are (at least globally) a monarchy.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)