Which form of government is the best?
#11
(09-05-2013, 12:23 PM)Tim Wrote: Because we all suffer from Original Sin, all forms of government are corrupt. We should be suspicious of all of them especially Monarchies which God Almighty warned against. Gotta go my char ladies want me to move.

tim

I understand what you intend Tim, but I'm not sure we can say it as you do here.

The State is a perfect society. It is in man's nature to be social, and thus, the State was divinely ordained and given all of the means to attain its proper end. Thus any government of such a State, which is a necessary accident of such, is per se good.

Because of Original Sin and fallen human nature, those who exercise this power are constantly tempted toward corruption and abuse. When such corruption happens, we can certainly say that such a particular government is not good, but that does not make the institution of the State itself corrupt.

The Church does not prefer any form of government. She only insists that the government recognize the rights of the Church.

St. Thomas seems to argue that government by one when that one is virtuous is better, and when corrupt, government by many is the lesser evil.

History has shown that it is possible to have both rule by one or rule by many in a Catholic State.
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#12
Perhaps it's my generation but I have never seen virtuous government, and history, as taught back in the day, did not show any Monarchies as virtuous either. Yeah we need organization as in the state.  In my mind's eye, and with my memory of Chicago in the Daley era, as corrupt as it was said to have been, and I reject that notion, that was good administration. It was a model similar to those in the city-states.  One could get an audience with a decision maker, and no King allows a commoner that. More one could get a hearing over a grievance because the government was small and one had direct access to the decision makers. A small business man could get a rule bent say over garbage pick up without needing a gajillion lawyers, just go visit the war boss. Outside of a hand full European Monarch which became Saints in spite of their Crowns and three Kings of Israel, Monarchies are pretty bad.

tim
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#13
Wouldn't the ideal government be one which outlines and guarantees the social order in accordance with the teachings of the Catholic Church?
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#14
(09-05-2013, 10:25 PM)dark lancer Wrote: Wouldn't the ideal government be one which outlines and guarantees the social order in accordance with the teachings of the Catholic Church?

Of course. The question here is which form of government is best suited for that.
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#15
(09-05-2013, 10:49 PM)devoutchristian Wrote:
(09-05-2013, 10:25 PM)dark lancer Wrote: Wouldn't the ideal government be one which outlines and guarantees the social order in accordance with the teachings of the Catholic Church?

Of course. The question here is which form of government is best suited for that.

Exactly !!

tim
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#16
(09-05-2013, 10:49 PM)devoutchristian Wrote:
(09-05-2013, 10:25 PM)dark lancer Wrote: Wouldn't the ideal government be one which outlines and guarantees the social order in accordance with the teachings of the Catholic Church?

Of course. The question here is which form of government is best suited for that.

Exactly.  Obviously not a democratic republic.

How about a Catholic feudal parliament?  The nobles owe the king loyalty, the king guarantees social order, and the parliament makes sure that the king and nobility don't exceed their authority.
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#17
(09-05-2013, 11:55 PM)dark lancer Wrote:
(09-05-2013, 10:49 PM)devoutchristian Wrote:
(09-05-2013, 10:25 PM)dark lancer Wrote: Wouldn't the ideal government be one which outlines and guarantees the social order in accordance with the teachings of the Catholic Church?

Of course. The question here is which form of government is best suited for that.

Exactly.  Obviously not a democratic republic.

How about a Catholic feudal parliament?  The nobles owe the king loyalty, the king guarantees social order, and the parliament makes sure that the king and nobility don't exceed their authority.

But would it not be better to have leaders chosen based on virtue and competence, rather than heredity?
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#18
(09-05-2013, 06:31 PM)Tim Wrote: Perhaps it's my generation but I have never seen virtuous government, and history, as taught back in the day, did not show any Monarchies as virtuous either. Yeah we need organization as in the state.  In my mind's eye, and with my memory of Chicago in the Daley era, as corrupt as it was said to have been, and I reject that notion, that was good administration. It was a model similar to those in the city-states.  One could get an audience with a decision maker, and no King allows a commoner that. More one could get a hearing over a grievance because the government was small and one had direct access to the decision makers. A small business man could get a rule bent say over garbage pick up without needing a gajillion lawyers, just go visit the war boss. Outside of a hand full European Monarch which became Saints in spite of their Crowns and three Kings of Israel, Monarchies are pretty bad.

tim

I'm not that much younger, and I haven't seen it either.

The difficulty, however, comes when one adopts the libertarian attitude that Regan expressed that "Government is the problem". Granted, he did not mean that anarchy was the solution, and did have a point -- that government does not exists to take care of every need of man, and the Democratic platform at the time was to move toward outright Socialism.

The problem is we cannot as Catholic hold the position that government is a necessary evil. That's Rousseau, and there is nothing Catholic about his political ideology.

Understanding that while the State and government are not evils in themselves, but true goods, in practice every government due to human nature will have some corruption.

The form that government takes, however, is a practical matter to be decided based on the times. It is clear that monarchy does not work in the modern world with our Liberal ideas, for instance. If we want to theoretically know the principles, then St. Thomas provides the answer (linked in my previous post). Applying the principles is always a judgement call based on many other factors, including history.

My thought is that, at present in the United States, the best form of government would be a looser confederacy of states with a high degree of subsidiarity in some representative form. This accords with our Liberal tendencies (and thus could be accomplished). This would allow good Catholics to come together in their towns and cities and after a time given that good Catholic do not contracept, we would have small Catholic cities and towns, and then after some time, larger Catholic governments. This would also provide time to rid ourselves of some of the Liberal errors by good Catholic social life.
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#19
Here's my point I see no evidence Catholics should want a King. I see God Almighty warning against a King even King David. I believe in subsidiarity and the US Government is not that. Plus it's the European Monarchs borrowing money from the Talmudists which has landed us in this Age of Usury. Just because the 20th century left of center governments were nearly apocalyptic in ruining the world, that doesn't make the Louis' good guys either. I want no inbreed french king running the show. They have been complicit in this ruin.
Bah!

tim
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#20
(09-06-2013, 04:33 PM)Tim Wrote: Here's my point I see no evidence Catholics should want a King. I see God Almighty warning against a King even King David. I believe in subsidiarity and the US Government is not that. Plus it's the European Monarchs borrowing money from the Talmudists which has landed us in this Age of Usury. Just because the 20th century left of center governments were nearly apocalyptic in ruining the world, that doesn't make the Louis' good guys either. I want no inbreed french king running the show. They have been complicit in this ruin.
Bah!

tim

Make an exception for St. Louis IX, and I'll make no argument with the above.
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