Which form of government is the best?
#21
Pope Pius VI said monarchy is the best form of government in thesis (“praestantioris monorchici regiminis forma”)
{allocution to the Consistory of June 17, 1793, Les Enseignements Pontificaux – La Paix Interieure de Nations, by the monks of Solesmes (Paris: Desclee & Cie), p. 8.}
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#22
(09-06-2013, 12:32 AM)devoutchristian Wrote:
(09-05-2013, 11:55 PM)dark lancer Wrote:
(09-05-2013, 10:49 PM)devoutchristian Wrote:
(09-05-2013, 10:25 PM)dark lancer Wrote: Wouldn't the ideal government be one which outlines and guarantees the social order in accordance with the teachings of the Catholic Church?

Of course. The question here is which form of government is best suited for that.

Exactly.  Obviously not a democratic republic.

How about a Catholic feudal parliament?  The nobles owe the king loyalty, the king guarantees social order, and the parliament makes sure that the king and nobility don't exceed their authority.

But would it not be better to have leaders chosen based on virtue and competence, rather than heredity?

Yes, which is why I choose myself.  I don't need a secular "authority" telling me how to live my life.  The Church is enough. 
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#23
(09-07-2013, 12:22 AM)Geremia Wrote: Pope Pius VI said monarchy is the best form of government in thesis (“praestantioris monorchici regiminis forma”)
{allocution to the Consistory of June 17, 1793, Les Enseignements Pontificaux – La Paix Interieure de Nations, by the monks of Solesmes (Paris: Desclee & Cie), p. 8.}

Do you have a source for this? I couldn't find anything in English on google.

(09-07-2013, 12:44 AM)PeterII Wrote:
(09-06-2013, 12:32 AM)devoutchristian Wrote:
(09-05-2013, 11:55 PM)dark lancer Wrote:
(09-05-2013, 10:49 PM)devoutchristian Wrote:
(09-05-2013, 10:25 PM)dark lancer Wrote: Wouldn't the ideal government be one which outlines and guarantees the social order in accordance with the teachings of the Catholic Church?

Of course. The question here is which form of government is best suited for that.

Exactly.  Obviously not a democratic republic.

How about a Catholic feudal parliament?  The nobles owe the king loyalty, the king guarantees social order, and the parliament makes sure that the king and nobility don't exceed their authority.

But would it not be better to have leaders chosen based on virtue and competence, rather than heredity?

Yes, which is why I choose myself.  I don't need a secular "authority" telling me how to live my life.  The Church is enough. 

So if someone wants to murder you you don't want an authority to punish them?
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#24
Magister Musicae Wrote:I'm not that much younger, and I haven't seen it either.

The difficulty, however, comes when one adopts the libertarian attitude that Regan expressed that "Government is the problem". Granted, he did not mean that anarchy was the solution, and did have a point -- that government does not exists to take care of every need of man, and the Democratic platform at the time was to move toward outright Socialism.

The problem is we cannot as Catholic hold the position that government is a necessary evil. That's Rousseau, and there is nothing Catholic about his political ideology.

Understanding that while the State and government are not evils in themselves, but true goods, in practice every government due to human nature will have some corruption.

The form that government takes, however, is a practical matter to be decided based on the times. It is clear that monarchy does not work in the modern world with our Liberal ideas, for instance. If we want to theoretically know the principles, then St. Thomas provides the answer (linked in my previous post). Applying the principles is always a judgement call based on many other factors, including history.

My thought is that, at present in the United States, the best form of government would be a looser confederacy of states with a high degree of subsidiarity in some representative form. This accords with our Liberal tendencies (and thus could be accomplished). This would allow good Catholics to come together in their towns and cities and after a time given that good Catholic do not contracept, we would have small Catholic cities and towns, and then after some time, larger Catholic governments. This would also provide time to rid ourselves of some of the Liberal errors by good Catholic social life.

First, the statement that "government is a necessary evil" comes from Thomas Paine, not Rousseau.  And he was wrong, but only in stating that government is necessary. 

A hermit, monastics, or a family does not need a civil authority above them.  They are perfect societies that can take care of themselves, and therefore fall under the definition of "State".

A State in the modern sense is just a monopoly on coercion over a territory, and coercion against innocent people is evil and unnecessary.
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#25
devoutchristian Wrote:So if someone wants to murder you you don't want an authority to punish them?

No, I want a 9mm Glock. 
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#26
(09-07-2013, 12:58 AM)devoutchristian Wrote:
(09-07-2013, 12:22 AM)Geremia Wrote: Pope Pius VI said monarchy is the best form of government in thesis (“praestantioris monorchici regiminis forma”)
{allocution to the Consistory of June 17, 1793, Les Enseignements Pontificaux – La Paix Interieure de Nations, by the monks of Solesmes (Paris: Desclee & Cie), p. 8.}

Do you have a source for this? I couldn't find anything in English on google.
It's from Pius VI's Quare lacrymæ. I could only find it in Italian translation, but here's a Google translation into English of the Italian. Here's the Latin original.
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#27
(09-07-2013, 01:16 AM)PeterII Wrote:
Magister Musicae Wrote:I'm not that much younger, and I haven't seen it either.

The difficulty, however, comes when one adopts the libertarian attitude that Regan expressed that "Government is the problem". Granted, he did not mean that anarchy was the solution, and did have a point -- that government does not exists to take care of every need of man, and the Democratic platform at the time was to move toward outright Socialism.

The problem is we cannot as Catholic hold the position that government is a necessary evil. That's Rousseau, and there is nothing Catholic about his political ideology.

Understanding that while the State and government are not evils in themselves, but true goods, in practice every government due to human nature will have some corruption.

The form that government takes, however, is a practical matter to be decided based on the times. It is clear that monarchy does not work in the modern world with our Liberal ideas, for instance. If we want to theoretically know the principles, then St. Thomas provides the answer (linked in my previous post). Applying the principles is always a judgement call based on many other factors, including history.

My thought is that, at present in the United States, the best form of government would be a looser confederacy of states with a high degree of subsidiarity in some representative form. This accords with our Liberal tendencies (and thus could be accomplished). This would allow good Catholics to come together in their towns and cities and after a time given that good Catholic do not contracept, we would have small Catholic cities and towns, and then after some time, larger Catholic governments. This would also provide time to rid ourselves of some of the Liberal errors by good Catholic social life.

First, the statement that "government is a necessary evil" comes from Thomas Paine, not Rousseau.  And he was wrong, but only in stating that government is necessary. 

A hermit, monastics, or a family does not need a civil authority above them.  They are perfect societies that can take care of themselves, and therefore fall under the definition of "State".

A State in the modern sense is just a monopoly on coercion over a territory, and coercion against innocent people is evil and unnecessary.

So you're a dissident Catholic?

(09-07-2013, 01:18 AM)PeterII Wrote:
devoutchristian Wrote:So if someone wants to murder you you don't want an authority to punish them?

No, I want a 9mm Glock. 

And if you're already dead?

(09-07-2013, 09:05 AM)Geremia Wrote:
(09-07-2013, 12:58 AM)devoutchristian Wrote:
(09-07-2013, 12:22 AM)Geremia Wrote: Pope Pius VI said monarchy is the best form of government in thesis (“praestantioris monorchici regiminis forma”)
{allocution to the Consistory of June 17, 1793, Les Enseignements Pontificaux – La Paix Interieure de Nations, by the monks of Solesmes (Paris: Desclee & Cie), p. 8.}

Do you have a source for this? I couldn't find anything in English on google.
It's from Pius VI's Quare lacrymæ. I could only find it in Italian translation, but here's a Google translation into English of the Italian. Here's the Latin original.

I couldn't find anything in there condemning republicanism, but only anticlericalism and revolution.
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#28
(09-07-2013, 01:16 AM)PeterII Wrote:
Magister Musicae Wrote:I'm not that much younger, and I haven't seen it either.

The difficulty, however, comes when one adopts the libertarian attitude that Regan expressed that "Government is the problem". Granted, he did not mean that anarchy was the solution, and did have a point -- that government does not exists to take care of every need of man, and the Democratic platform at the time was to move toward outright Socialism.

The problem is we cannot as Catholic hold the position that government is a necessary evil. That's Rousseau, and there is nothing Catholic about his political ideology.

Understanding that while the State and government are not evils in themselves, but true goods, in practice every government due to human nature will have some corruption.

The form that government takes, however, is a practical matter to be decided based on the times. It is clear that monarchy does not work in the modern world with our Liberal ideas, for instance. If we want to theoretically know the principles, then St. Thomas provides the answer (linked in my previous post). Applying the principles is always a judgement call based on many other factors, including history.

My thought is that, at present in the United States, the best form of government would be a looser confederacy of states with a high degree of subsidiarity in some representative form. This accords with our Liberal tendencies (and thus could be accomplished). This would allow good Catholics to come together in their towns and cities and after a time given that good Catholic do not contracept, we would have small Catholic cities and towns, and then after some time, larger Catholic governments. This would also provide time to rid ourselves of some of the Liberal errors by good Catholic social life.

First, the statement that "government is a necessary evil" comes from Thomas Paine, not Rousseau.  And he was wrong, but only in stating that government is necessary. 

A hermit, monastics, or a family does not need a civil authority above them.  They are perfect societies that can take care of themselves, and therefore fall under the definition of "State".

A State in the modern sense is just a monopoly on coercion over a territory, and coercion against innocent people is evil and unnecessary.

I wasn't presuming to quote Rousseau, but paraphrase ... Payne is the logical outcome of Rousseau, Hobbes, etc. so that he actually used those words is no surprise.

A society is traditionally (for the scholastics) defined as a permanent group of men working together for a under a common authority for common goal.

A family is a society, but is not a perfect society (Not in the sense of "deficient", but because it depends on other units to fulfill its ends). It cannot provide for all of the temporal needs of its members.

For example, the State (a perfect society) provides such things as laws to regulate commerce between people, the ability to punish criminals, a common defense against enemies. A family cannot do that. A family, for instance, cannot inflict the death penalty for a crime, and cannot provide a common defense against enemies. Further, if we had many families all living independently of each other on the civil level, there would be no society.

A hermit is not a society because he is alone, there is no authority and no common goal.

A monastery in itself is not a perfect society, because it is a kind of family, like a family, it lacks certain qualities that a State possesses.
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#29
(09-07-2013, 11:09 AM)devoutchristian Wrote: I couldn't find anything in there condemning republicanism, but only anticlericalism and revolution.
The Church has never condemned democracy. It has only said that monarchy is the best form of government.
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#30
(09-07-2013, 04:10 PM)Geremia Wrote:
(09-07-2013, 11:09 AM)devoutchristian Wrote: I couldn't find anything in there condemning republicanism, but only anticlericalism and revolution.
The Church has never condemned democracy. It has only said that monarchy is the best form of government.

No it hasn't.
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