I think we can label ourselves Pharisees based on a specific definition...
#1
I was watching an excellent bible study on the Gospel of Matthew that was recently put on by the Institute of Catholic Culture. The Pharisees were described as such (paraphrased):

"The Pharisees generally were not bad people. In fact, most were quite good indeed! But their concern was with following the Law. They believed if everyone followed the Law completely, then the Messianic Age would be ushered in, so they made ways to keep from coming close to breaking the Law, just to be safe."

Eventually they lost sight of the good purpose of this and, well, you know what Our Lord said to them.

I really see this definition fitting Traditional Catholicism very well. Don't we, in our heart of hearts, believe that if we returned to the Traditional Liturgy, just had everyone immediately start doing strict fasts immediately and making sure every person had their butt in the pew and fasted on Ember Days, and so on then everything would be restored? No time to wait, let's just get everyone to do it now and change their ways immediately. It's the only way!

In the end, isn't this why we can all have a bitter streak, whether it's large or small? The faith of our Fathers has been abandoned externally and almost certainly internally in many places. And yet we are trying so dang hard to do what is right and will restore the Church, it's not fair that everyone else is getting off scot free and keeping things in ruin, while we receive scorn!

Yet I suppose we mustn't lose sight of how many people have been failed by bad clergy or misguided by incorrect sensa fideli. It's easy to get angry or sorrowful, but we know that we have to pick up the cross, which is to be humble and charitable and gently guide everyone to the traditional ways. Don't get me wrong, I advocate for all that I mentioned above, and more. But losing sight of the bigger issues of mercy, patience,praying for others rather than backbiting, is really what is required, with our traditional faith and practices, to bring about the restoration. Otherwise I worry Our Lord will chastise us by taking away the Traditional Mass. If the Traditional Mass is not bearing the fruit we all think it should, it may be cut off.

Just something I've been thinking about. Happy First Friday.
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#2
(09-06-2013, 11:36 AM)Tenmaru Wrote: But losing sight of the bigger issues of mercy, patience,praying for others rather than backbiting, is really what is required, with our traditional faith and practices, to bring about the restoration.

yes, tenmaru.

i have often prayed, 'lord, may i be traditional as the saints were traditional.'
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#3
The Pharisees were the keepers of the law and tradition and did a good job. For the most part they were holy men and wanted others to be holy too. They had all the right doctrine, believed in the resurrection, angels and demons, and an afterlife -- while the Saduccees did not. But the Pharisees allowed the smaller issues, the "trappings" and small "t" traditions, to cloud what was really important. No one is saying we shouldn't have trappings and small "t" traditions, necessarily. But we shouldn't put them FIRST. And some do, even to the neglect of faith, hope and charity.

We must have been watching the same program!

Happy First Friday :)
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#4
Great post, Tenmaru.
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#5
To answer in short, no. That of course is not to say that it hasn't happened or that it could not happen to any of us.

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#6
(09-06-2013, 11:36 AM)Tenmaru Wrote: I really see this definition fitting Traditional Catholicism very well. Don't we, in our heart of hearts, believe that if we returned to the Traditional Liturgy, just had everyone immediately start doing strict fasts immediately and making sure every person had their butt in the pew and fasted on Ember Days, and so on then everything would be restored? No time to wait, let's just get everyone to do it now and change their ways immediately. It's the only way!

I'm sorry - I am not trying to be contrary, but I don't see this ever. I think trads are more sophisticated than this.

However, what you say here would be a great start to restoration. Everybody going to a TLM and fasting for the sake of Jesus Christ? Count me in. It's a start.

But I agree with you that it is a danger. Generally I don't see it. Not in large doses or across the board. Perhaps in small instances from person to person, but that is unavoidable as a human being and not limited to traditionalists.

This is only my opinion.

God Bless you +
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#7
(09-06-2013, 01:45 PM)Basilios Wrote:
(09-06-2013, 11:36 AM)Tenmaru Wrote: I really see this definition fitting Traditional Catholicism very well. Don't we, in our heart of hearts, believe that if we returned to the Traditional Liturgy, just had everyone immediately start doing strict fasts immediately and making sure every person had their butt in the pew and fasted on Ember Days, and so on then everything would be restored? No time to wait, let's just get everyone to do it now and change their ways immediately. It's the only way!

I'm sorry - I am not trying to be contrary, but I don't see this ever.

This. "Going through the motions" isn't enough. There needs to be a "conversion of the heart" (not to be all touchy-feely, but you know what I mean). Hence why people went to hell before Vatican II, despite traditional practices and sacraments, and why people who attend the NO can still go to heaven. Do I think that traditional sacraments and theology would help people to "know, love, and serve God" better and with less confusion? Definitely! But only if they want to, in the first place.
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#8
Of course we need baby steps for those who are very far from living chaste, Catholic lifestyles in general. However, what would be so objectionable about conservative NO Catholics attending the TLM and observing holy days and fasts? I mean, conservative Catholics seem so be a bit snobby anyway...the TLM would bring them to be a bit more humble, methinks.

And Guacamole, how hard can you possibly pray to live like the saints when you belong to a heretical prot group? I think it'd be fairly easy to kick start the process of this life by simply returning to the true faith. After that it is baby steps
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#9
(09-06-2013, 02:55 PM)MorganHiver Wrote: And Guacamole, how hard can you possibly pray to live like the saints when you belong to a heretical prot group?

really, really hard!!!   :)

i attend a beautiful, old anglo-catholic parish, st. clement's in philadelphia.  i hope you can visit sometime next time you're in philly!  we use the english missal (the tridentine mass translated into gorgeous english). 
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#10
Please don't lump all trad Catholics together.  I can be in strong favor of a restoration of the TLM and Catholic traditions and still remain loyal to the Church and the pope.

Unlike some "trad" groups who want the TLM because of Sacred Tradition and still break Sacred Tradition by being disobedient to the Church and the pope.  You know who you are.
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