I think we can label ourselves Pharisees based on a specific definition...
#11
But you have stated that you belong to the Old *Catholic* church and now you are episcopalian? That isn't a very Catholic thing to do. You seem to have done a lot of religion hopping and reading. You talk about the saints as if they belong to your particular worship building and you post on a Roman Catholic forum. This is very strange.


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#12
(09-06-2013, 04:15 PM)MorganHiver Wrote: But you have stated that you belong to the Old *Catholic* church and now you are episcopalian?

i embrace the old catholic tradition.  i attend an anglo-catholic church because they are in communion with the union of utrecht.  i also believe in the validity of anglican orders, especially since the infusion of old catholic lines of apostolic succession after apostolicae curiae.
Quote:That isn't a very Catholic thing to do. You seem to have done a lot of religion hopping and reading.

we disagree about whether it is catholic or not.  i am convinced that it is, and i'm grateful to have a place where i can receive the sacraments and be in communion with other catholics.

i can no longer believe in papal infallibility, so this is a good place for me.  i don't want to derail the thread, so feel free to follow up by private message.
Quote:You talk about the saints as if they belong to your particular worship building and you post on a Roman Catholic forum. This is very strange.

tell me about it!   :LOL:

here, have a cup of coffee and a donut with me.   :coffee: :donut:
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#13
Today's trads aren't Pharisees yet. They haven't started to put fences around the Law. I can't remember the word for that in Hebrew, but it meant making the Law more stringent so no one could get near infraction. This became twisted as you know and Jesus Christ sailed into the Pharisees which were bent. The part which is similar is the Talmud. It was invented and we are poised to make up Tradition.

The similarity is both broke from Tradition. Pharisees broke with Tradition because the temple was obliterated and they relied on the Babylonian Talmud. The trads cutoff from Tradition search documents and stitch together what they believe was Tradition. Here is the danger it's archaeologism. If it's old it's good and if it's new it's heresy. This has become pejoratives like the "Concilar church", implying the Church has failed and is no longer the Faith, or the NO Mass offends God. Plus the priest which have memory of before Vatican II are dead or dying, so the others with good intentions sometimes make it up as they go.

So far this has affected the fringe the so called rad trad for real not CA's radtrads. But the devil is working on this night and day because it'd be sooo sweet to see devout Catholics end in eternal fire. Suuweeet ! Go read about Hillel and his son-in-law Gamaliel, one is a stickler the other more the spirit of the Law, and Hillel is a well regarded Talmudist while Gamaliel became a Catholic in Acts. Here's another similarity spirit of the Law and the Law as shrine. The Law doesn't save as St. Paul expounded in his many words.There is danger in returning to that.

tim
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#14
(09-06-2013, 12:35 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: They had all the right doctrine, believed in the resurrection, angels and demons, and an afterlife -- while the Saduccees did not.

Which is why they were so sad, you see.
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#15
(09-06-2013, 04:19 PM)Tim Wrote: Today's trads aren't Pharisees yet. They haven't started to put fences around the Law. I can't remember the word for that in Hebrew, but it meant making the Law more stringent so no one could get near infraction.

Quote:What is Halakhah?

Judaism is not just a set of beliefs about God, man, and the universe.  Judaism is a comprehensive way of life, filled with rules and practices that affect every aspect of life:  what you do when you wake up in the morning, what you can and cannot eat, what you can and cannot wear, how to groom yourself, how to conduct business, who you can marry, how to observe the holidays and Sabbaths, and perhaps most important, how to behave towards God, other people, and animals.  This set of rules and practices is known as halakhah.

The word "halakhah" is usually translated as "Jewish Law", although a more literal translation might be "the path that one walks".  The word is derived from the Hebrew root Heh-Lamed-Kaf, meaning to go, to walk, or to travel.

Some non-Jews and non-observant Jews criticize this legalistic aspect of traditional Judaism, saying that it reduces the religion to a set of rituals devoid of spirituality.  While there are certainly some Jews who observe halakhah in this way, that is not the intention of halakhah, and it is not even the correct way to observe halakhah.

On the contrary, when properly observed, halakhah increases the spirituality in a person's life, because it turns the most trivial, mundane acts, such as eating and getting dressed, into acts of religious significance.  When people write and ask how to increase their spirituality or the influence of their religion in their lives, the only answer we can think of is:  observe more halakhah.  Keep kosher or light sabbath candles, say the grace after meals, or pray once or twice a day.  When you do these things, you are constantly reminded of your faith, and it becomes an integral part of your entire existence.
What Does Halakhah Consist of?

Halakhah is made up of mitzvot from the Torah as well as laws instituted by the rabbis and certain customs.  All of these have the status of Jewish law and all are equally binding.  The only difference is that the penalties for violating laws and customs instituted by the rabbis are less severe than the penalties for violating Torah law, and laws instituted by the rabbis can be changed by the rabbis in rare, appropriate circumstances.
The 613 Mitzvot

At the heart of halakhah is the unchangeable 613 mitzvot that God gave to the Jewish people in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible).  The word "mitzvah" means commandment.  In its strictest sense, it refers only to commandments instituted in the Torah; however, the word is commonly used in a more generic sense to include all of the laws, practices and customs of halakhah, and is often used in an even more loose way to refer to any good deed.

Some of the mitzvot are clear, explicit commands in the Bible (thou shalt not murder; to write words of Torah on the doorposts of your house), others are more implicit (the mitzvah to recite grace after meals, which is inferred from "and you will eat and be satisfied and bless the LORD your God"), and some can only be ascertained by Talmudic logic (that a man shall not commit incest with his daughter, which is derived from the commandment not to commit incest with his daughter's daughter).

Some of the mitzvot overlap; for example, it is a positive commandment to rest on the Sabbath and a negative commandment not to do work on the Sabbath.

Although there is not 100% agreement on the precise list of the 613 (there are some slight discrepancies in the way some lists divide related or overlapping mitzvot), there is complete agreement that there are 613 mitzvot.  This number is significant:  it is the numeric value of the word Torah (Tav = 400, Vav = 6, Resh = 200, Heh = 5), plus 2 for the two mitzvot whose existence precedes the Torah:  "I am the LORD, your God" and "You shall have no other gods before Me".  There is also complete agreement that these 613 mitzvot can be broken down into 248 positive mitzvot (one for each bone and organ of the male body) and 365 negative mitzvot (one for each day of the solar year).

The most accepted list of the 613 mitzvot is Maimonides' list in his Mishneh Torah.  In the introduction to the first book of Mishneh Torah, Maimonides lists all of the positive mitzvot and all of the negative mitzvot, then proceeds to divide them up into subject matter categories.  See List of the 613 Mitzvot.

Many of these 613 mitzvot cannot be observed at this time for various reasons.  For example, a large portion of the laws relate to sacrifices and offerings, which can only be made in the Temple, and the Temple does not exist today.  Some of the laws relate to the theocratic state of Israel, its king, its supreme court, and its system of justice, and cannot be observed because the theocratic state of Israel does not exist today.  In addition, some laws do not apply to all people or places.  Most agricultural laws only apply within the Land of Israel, and certain laws only apply to kohanim or Levites.  The modern scholar Rabbi Israel Meir of Radin, commonly known as the Chafetz Chayim, has identified 77 positive mitzvot and 194 negative mitzvot which can be observed outside of Israel today.
Gezeirah:  A Fence around the Torah

A gezeirah is a law instituted by the rabbis to prevent people from accidentally violating a Torah mitzvah.  For example, the Torah commands us not to work on the Sabbath, but a gezeirah commands us not to move a object only used to perform prohibited work (such as a pencil, money, a hammer), because someone handling the implement might forget that it was the Sabbath and perform prohibited work.

It is important to note that from the point of view of the practicing Jew, there is no difference between a gezeirah and a Torah mitzvah.  Both are equally binding.  The difference is just in the severity of punishment:  a Torah violation of the Sabbath is punishable by death, while a rabbinical violation of a gezeirah is punishable by whipping.

Another difference between a gezeirah and a mitzvah is that the rabbis can, in rare appropriate circumstances, modify, or abrogate a gezeirah.  Rabbis cannot change the Torah law that was commanded by God.
Takkanah:  A Law Instituted by the Rabbis

Halakhah also includes some laws that are not derived from mitzvot in the Torah.  A takkanah is a law that was instituted by the rabbis.  For example, the "mitzvah" to light candles on Chanukkah, a post-biblical holiday, is a takkanah.  The practice of public Torah readings every Monday and Thursday is a takkanah instituted by Ezra.

Some takkanot vary from community to community or from region to region.  For example, around the year 1000 C.E., a rabbi instituted a prohibition of polygyny, a practice clearly permitted by the Torah and the Talmud.  It was accepted by Ashkenazic Jews, who lived in Christian countries where polygyny was not permitted, but was not accepted by Sephardic Jews, who lived in Islamic countries where men were permitted up to four wives.

A takkanah, like a gezeirah, is just as binding as a Torah mitzvah.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/halakhah.htm

One of the problems with your argument, Tim, is that it sets up a conflict that neither Jewish Law nor the Commandments, which Jesus reinforced, assumed.  Law, and Commandments, were supplied to free man from his slavery to his base inclinations which separate him from God.  They "bound" the believer to God rather than to mammon.  And God is ultimate freedom.

Also, one of the reasons for the Benedictine, etc. Rule is precisely that.  Religious life has a similar character & purpose to it as what was quoted above:

"On the contrary, when properly observed, halakhah increases the spirituality in a person's life, because it turns the most trivial, mundane acts, such as eating and getting dressed, into acts of religious significance."
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#16
(09-06-2013, 03:21 PM)dark lancer Wrote: Please don't lump all trad Catholics together.  I can be in strong favor of a restoration of the TLM and Catholic traditions and still remain loyal to the Church and the pope.

Unlike some "trad" groups who want the TLM because of Sacred Tradition and still break Sacred Tradition by being disobedient to the Church and the pope.  You know who you are.

It is the duty of every Catholic to resist the pope if he tries to teach or displays something contrary to the Tradition of the Church for us to follow. Pope Innocent III, Eugene IV, Pius IX (to name a few) have said as much. In addition, we have had examples of popes that have attempted to teach things that are contrary to the faith, such as Honorius, John XXII and the post VII popes, as well as actions that have been condemned by the Church in the past, such as praying with heretics, schismatics and non believers, that have scandalized untold numbers of Catholics. It is very traditional to cling to the FAITH.
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#17
::sigh::
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#18
Miriam you do remember that S. Paul said the Law saves no one. I hope you remember all the times Jesus Christ chastised the Pharisees too.


And this;
"On the contrary, when properly observed, halakhah increases the spirituality in a person's life, because it turns the most trivial, mundane acts, such as eating and getting dressed, into acts of religious significance."
is Judaizing.

tim

I just had a flash. Miriam are you the former Rosalind Moss, now known as Mother Miriam of the Lamb of God.
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#19
I'm noticing a trend here.  Are trads experiencing some sort of Trad Catholic Guilt?
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#20
(09-06-2013, 04:44 PM)Miriam_M Wrote: One of the problems with your argument, Tim, is that it sets up a conflict that neither Jewish Law nor the Commandments, which Jesus reinforced, assumed.  Law, and Commandments, were supplied to free man from his slavery to his base inclinations which separate him from God.  They "bound" the believer to God rather than to mammon.  And God is ultimate freedom.

Also, one of the reasons for the Benedictine, etc. Rule is precisely that.  Religious life has a similar character & purpose to it as what was quoted above:

"On the contrary, when properly observed, halakhah increases the spirituality in a person's life, because it turns the most trivial, mundane acts, such as eating and getting dressed, into acts of religious significance."

Galatians 3: "Why then was the law? It was set because of transgressions, until the seed should come, to whom he made the promise, being ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Was the law then against the promises of God? God forbid. For if there had been a law given which could give life, verily justice should have been by the law.  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise, by the faith of Jesus Christ, might be given to them that believe.  But before the faith came, we were kept under the law shut up, unto that faith which was to be revealed.  Wherefore the law was our pedagogue in Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  But after the faith is come, we are no longer under a pedagogue."

Aside from the purpose of the Old Law, there was a problem in the 1st c. with Pharisees being, well, Pharisaical. Legalistic. And some people still have that sort of attitude with regard to the New Covenant and Canon law. I think that's the problem the OP was talking about.
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