Washington Post: Conservative Catholics question Pope Francis’s approach
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Washington Post: Conservative Catholics question Pope Francis’s approach

Rattled by Pope Francis’s admonishment to Catholics not to be “obsessed” by doctrine, his stated reluctance to judge gay priests and his apparent willingness to engage just about anyone — including atheists — many conservative Catholics are doing what only recently seemed unthinkable:

They are openly questioning the pope.


Concern among traditionalists began building soon after Francis was elected this spring. Almost immediately, the new pope told non-Catholic and atheist journalists he would bless them silently out of respect. Soon after, he eschewed Vatican practice and included women in a foot-washing ceremony.

The wary traditionalists became critical when, in an interview a few weeks ago, Francis said Catholics shouldn’t be “obsessed” with imposing doctrines, including on gay marriage and abortion. Then earlier this month, Francis told an atheist journalist that people should follow good and fight evil as they “conceive” of them. These remarks followed an interview with journalists this summer aboard the papal airplane in which the pope declared that it is not his role to judge someone who is gay “if they accept the Lord and have goodwill.”


More here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/o...story.html

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#2
Argentinian Jesuit Popes...  Am I right? :shrug:
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#3
The thing is, Pope Francis came of age in the Arrupean Jesuits in the heady days of the post Conciliar chaos in a theological climate of liberation theology. Based on all that it's hard to really be surprised by his approach to the Papacy.
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(10-15-2013, 11:31 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote: The thing is, Pope Francis came of age in the Arrupean Jesuits in the heady days of the post Conciliar chaos in a theological climate of liberation theology. Based on all that it's hard to really be surprised by his approach to the Papacy.

And based on all that, What Were They Thinking when the Cardinal electors chose him?  :crazy:

By the way, I worried about these coming-of-age factors before his election, when a Short List was being discussed in Catholic circles.  I thought:  (They can't be serious.  Unless he is very unlike his background, this spells trouble ahead.)
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#5
(10-15-2013, 11:57 AM)Miriam_M Wrote: Unless he is very unlike his background, this spells trouble ahead.[/i])

I think what happened is that he really, truly _appeared_ to be unlike his background. There were just too many conservative Cardinals in the conclave or at least too many Ratzingerians for them to have _knowingly_ elected this Pope.

If that is so, it raises the questions of what they are really thinking now.

I think some kind of conservative backlash against the Pope is a real possibility within the Cardinals.

And in a sense that relates to what is most interesting in this Washington Post piece: the testimony to conservative backlash.

This is new I think. Never will a pope have ever faced a conservative backlash like this before!

I mean, Paul VI the most liberal Pope ever (at least till now?) would never have had newspaper articles like this. When he was forging through with his reforms any protest movement was very, very tiny. Obviously there was a very small SSPX after 1970 etc - but they would not have been getting articles like this in the Washington Post.

At best, it would have been, a few nut cases way out there on the fringe of the Church have a problem with the Pope. Back then, the Pope was getting backlash for Humanae Vitae for not being liberal enough.

This phenomenon of conservative backlash towards the Pope could be unprecedented in the history of the Church.

I think - what do others think?
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#6
I find the article's mixed use of "conservative" and "traditional" an element that undermines it.  Are JPII/B16 "conservatives" really upset with Francis?  That's who trads consider conservative.  But the article uses "conservative" in the headline and then in the part quoted by Roger, it switches to "traditional".

Given there are few cardinals considered traditional, I don't think anyone can make any educated guesses on what the people who elected Francis were or are thinking based on reaction among trads.  "Conservatives" seem to be muddled in what they think about Francis.
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#7
You are right Jacob that very few Cardinals could be could considered traditional in the sense that is used here and that the media has precious little clue for these things.

But I think clearly numerousCardinals could be called Ratzingerian in outlook. They may well be muddled at the present moment - but how long that will last if this story keeps going the way it seems to be going will prove very interesting.

Chaput spoke about Catholics of the right not being happy with Pope Francis months ago, before the recent interviews.

While there may not be much to go on yet, I think this space is very worth watching.

Does anyone else see any signs of non-traditionalist Catholics, but the kind of people who did love Ratzinger, beginning to react?
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#8
(10-15-2013, 11:10 AM)Roger Buck Wrote: Washington Post: Conservative Catholics question Pope Francis’s approach

Rattled by Pope Francis’s admonishment to Catholics not to be “obsessed” by doctrine, his stated reluctance to judge gay priests and his apparent willingness to engage just about anyone — including atheists — many conservative Catholics are doing what only recently seemed unthinkable:

They are openly questioning the pope.


Concern among traditionalists began building soon after Francis was elected this spring. Almost immediately, the new pope told non-Catholic and atheist journalists he would bless them silently out of respect. Soon after, he eschewed Vatican practice and included women in a foot-washing ceremony.

The wary traditionalists became critical when, in an interview a few weeks ago, Francis said Catholics shouldn’t be “obsessed” with imposing doctrines, including on gay marriage and abortion. Then earlier this month, Francis told an atheist journalist that people should follow good and fight evil as they “conceive” of them. These remarks followed an interview with journalists this summer aboard the papal airplane in which the pope declared that it is not his role to judge someone who is gay “if they accept the Lord and have goodwill.”


More here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/o...story.html

I would not hit the panic button yet. Much is made by the secular media sometimes but what Pope Francis said on abortion and gay marriage are no different than what Pope Benedict said. For example, in 2006 he was questioned for not mentioning the usual moral issues in a speech and he responded by saying: "Christianity, Catholicism isn’t a collection of prohibitions: it’s a positive option," Benedict said. "We've heard so much about what is not allowed that now it's time to say: we have positive ideas to offer, that man and woman are made for each other…"
It's what the media didn't notice in Benedict that they now think they have "discovered" in Pope Francis.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/pope...31617.html

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#9
(10-15-2013, 07:05 PM)Cetil Wrote: I would not hit the panic button yet. Much is made by the secular media sometimes but what Pope Francis said on abortion and gay marriage are no different than what Pope Benedict said. For example, in 2006 he was questioned for not mentioning the usual moral issues in a speech and he responded by saying: "Christianity, Catholicism isn’t a collection of prohibitions: it’s a positive option," Benedict said. "We've heard so much about what is not allowed that now it's time to say: we have positive ideas to offer, that man and woman are made for each other…"
It's what the media didn't notice in Benedict that they now think they have "discovered" in Pope Francis.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/pope...31617.html

C.

What you say here, Cetil, is certainly correct. There IS a continuity. This relates to Miriam M's point above as to why he was elected by the Cardinals. I am sure they saw the continuity.

There is also, I think, accumulating evidence of a discontinuity at the same time. I have been holding my tongue for six months now, but am becoming  concerned by growing evidence of the latter.

I can't say I am fond of Bishop Fellay saying the crisis in the Church is 10,000x worse or the sedevacantist solution offered in other threads at this forum - but I don't think those people are entirely wrong either.

I think we need to hear both what you are posting about continuity - with helpful examples - and what others are saying about discontinuity  ... and pray for discernment.
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(10-16-2013, 05:24 AM)Roger Buck Wrote:
(10-15-2013, 07:05 PM)Cetil Wrote: I would not hit the panic button yet. Much is made by the secular media sometimes but what Pope Francis said on abortion and gay marriage are no different than what Pope Benedict said. For example, in 2006 he was questioned for not mentioning the usual moral issues in a speech and he responded by saying: "Christianity, Catholicism isn’t a collection of prohibitions: it’s a positive option," Benedict said. "We've heard so much about what is not allowed that now it's time to say: we have positive ideas to offer, that man and woman are made for each other…"
It's what the media didn't notice in Benedict that they now think they have "discovered" in Pope Francis.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/pope...31617.html

C.

What you say here, Cetil, is certainly correct. There IS a continuity. This relates to Miriam M's point above as to why he was elected by the Cardinals. I am sure they saw the continuity.

There is also, I think, accumulating evidence of a discontinuity at the same time. I have been holding my tongue for six months now, but am becoming  concerned by growing evidence of the latter.

I can't say I am fond of Bishop Fellay saying the crisis in the Church is 10,000x worse or the sedevacantist solution offered in other threads at this forum - but I don't think those people are entirely wrong either.

I think we need to hear both what you are posting about continuity - with helpful examples - and what others are saying about discontinuity  ... and pray for discernment.

I think the issue vexed Pope Benedict has it do doubt did John Paul II as well. The media's image of the  Church is of an institution that is against certain things and this obscures what our Faith is in its totality. This additional remark of Pope  Benedict shows his frustration with the way the Church is presented by the media today:

“I remember, when I used go to Germany in the 1980s and ’90s, that I was asked to give interviews and I always knew the questions in advance. They concerned the ordination of women, contraception, abortion and other such constantly recurring problems. If we let ourselves be drawn into these discussions, the Church is then identified with certain commandments or prohibitions; we give the impression that we are moralists with a few somewhat antiquated convictions, and not even a hint of the true greatness of the faith appears. I therefore consider it essential always to highlight the greatness of our faith – a commitment from which we must not allow such situations to divert us. ” –
Address of his Holiness Benedict XVI – Thursday, 9 November 2006

C.
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