Washington Post: Conservative Catholics question Pope Francis’s approach
#21
(10-15-2013, 03:55 PM)Roger Buck Wrote:
(10-15-2013, 11:57 AM)Miriam_M Wrote: Unless he is very unlike his background, this spells trouble ahead.[/i])

I think what happened is that he really, truly _appeared_ to be unlike his background. There were just too many conservative Cardinals in the conclave or at least too many Ratzingerians for them to have _knowingly_ elected this Pope.

If that is so, it raises the questions of what they are really thinking now.

I think some kind of conservative backlash against the Pope is a real possibility within the Cardinals.

And in a sense that relates to what is most interesting in this Washington Post piece: the testimony to conservative backlash.

This is new I think. Never will a pope have ever faced a conservative backlash like this before!

I mean, Paul VI the most liberal Pope ever (at least till now?) would never have had newspaper articles like this. When he was forging through with his reforms any protest movement was very, very tiny. Obviously there was a very small SSPX after 1970 etc - but they would not have been getting articles like this in the Washington Post.

At best, it would have been, a few nut cases way out there on the fringe of the Church have a problem with the Pope. Back then, the Pope was getting backlash for Humanae Vitae for not being liberal enough.

This phenomenon of conservative backlash towards the Pope could be unprecedented in the history of the Church.

I think - what do others think?
I think he is more conservative than you are making him out to be
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#22
(10-16-2013, 07:30 AM)Strategos7771 Wrote: As one of the people who was a fan of Pope Benedict, I think the perspective we had and why the full blown panic that is only starting now is that we were willing to give Francis the benefit of the doubt for the last half a year. In my lifetime Pope's parrot left winged talking points all the time, Pope Benedict did with his lame "unregulated markets" nonsense we had some faith he wouldn't fundamentally change doctrine though. Also we were willing to take a wait and see approach, I mean there has to be a transition period and we thought maybe the bad signs were general confusion, media weaselry and bad translations. Now that the 6 month grace period has passed, its dawning on us that its not an image its who Pope Francis really is hence the panic now.
Maybe you should take a look at some of the papal encyclicals dealing with these questions. Lets start with Rerum Novarum. The free and unbridled market is not a Catholic doctrine.
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#23
(10-16-2013, 10:59 AM)Cordobes Wrote: From the Pope's Monday address to the Council for for Promoting the New Evangelization, some good clarifications that indicate he means what he says, contra 'conservative Catholics' who attempt to spin his various statements and actions.

"So many people have fallen away from the Church. It’s a mistake to put the blame on one side or the other, in fact, it’s not about talking about fault. There are responsibilities in the history of the Church and of her men, in certain ideologies and also in individual persons. As children of the Church we must continue on the path of Vatican Council II, stripping ourselves of useless and harmful things, of false worldly securities which weigh down the Church and damage her true face."
The issue for Pope Francis is how the person who is coming into the Church is recieved. What kind of a welcome do we give them?
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#24
(10-17-2013, 03:46 AM)Roger Buck Wrote:
(10-16-2013, 05:55 PM)Cetil Wrote: Pope Francis has not done it either. Father Cekada's post is largely speculative, no one has been handed anything yet.


C.

Cetil, as I've said I appreciate you supplying the other side to what Father Cekada is saying. Your Mueller quote and more was helpful to me. I think what you are saying is worth listening to.

At the same time, respectfully, I am a little baffled by your comment above. I would have thought a few minutes spent on the National Catholic Reporter website  would bear out his words - at least to some extent?

But perhaps we are meaning different things by "modernist faction" ...?

I am not sure what you mean. Father Cekada is making predictions on what Pope Francis might do is my point. I think it's premature.

C.
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#25
(10-17-2013, 06:19 AM)Cetil Wrote:
(10-17-2013, 03:46 AM)Roger Buck Wrote:
(10-16-2013, 05:55 PM)Cetil Wrote: Pope Francis has not done it either. Father Cekada's post is largely speculative, no one has been handed anything yet.


C.

Cetil, as I've said I appreciate you supplying the other side to what Father Cekada is saying. Your Mueller quote and more was helpful to me. I think what you are saying is worth listening to.

At the same time, respectfully, I am a little baffled by your comment above. I would have thought a few minutes spent on the National Catholic Reporter website  would bear out his words - at least to some extent?

But perhaps we are meaning different things by "modernist faction" ...?

I am not sure what you mean. Father Cekada is making predictions on what Pope Francis might do is my point. I think it's premature.

C.
I predit tha tPope Francis will uphold some orthodox Catholic doctrine or practice and all these politically correct people will turn on him.
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#26
(10-17-2013, 06:19 AM)Cetil Wrote: I am not sure what you mean. Father Cekada is making predictions on what Pope Francis might do is my point. I think it's premature.

C.


I think I see where I am perhaps getting muddled. I agree that those predictions are premature and again your Mueller quote was helpful in that regard.

I was simply emphasising this _one_ line from FatherCekada:

"Handing the modernist faction an array of powerful weapons to use against doctrinal conservatives in the post-Vatican II establishment."


Because I see that happening in terms of websites like NCR etc They and many like minded groups being given weapons ... or so it seems to me.

When Fellay etc says the Pope is making the crisis in the Church 10, 000 times worse, etc ... I also think this is rash and not at all helpful.

I respect your prudence Cetil, but I guess I am also growing more concerned.

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#27
(10-17-2013, 04:55 PM)Roger Buck Wrote:
(10-17-2013, 06:19 AM)Cetil Wrote: I am not sure what you mean. Father Cekada is making predictions on what Pope Francis might do is my point. I think it's premature.

C.


I think I see where I am perhaps getting muddled. I agree that those predictions are premature and again your Mueller quote was helpful in that regard.

I was simply emphasising this _one_ line from FatherCekada:

"Handing the modernist faction an array of powerful weapons to use against doctrinal conservatives in the post-Vatican II establishment."


Because I see that happening in terms of websites like NCR etc They and many like minded groups being given weapons ... or so it seems to me.

When Fellay etc says the Pope is making the crisis in the Church 10, 000 times worse, etc ... I also think this is rash and not at all helpful.

I respect your prudence Cetil, but I guess I am also growing more concerned.

Roger,
I am not sure what you are reading at NCR. Jamie Manson the lesbian advocate there has made sharp attacks on Pope Francis because she knows perfectly well he will not change doctrine, no matter how "friendly" he might seem to gays. Her 9/26 column is a case in point. She cares little for Pope Francis welcoming words to gays when he at the same time reaffirms Catholic doctrine on homosexuality: " For all of his encouraging talk about a "big tent" church rather than a "small chapel," Francis seems firmly committed to keeping the doctrines as they are." and "Although Francis thinks gays and lesbians should be treated with compassion, respect and sensitivity, he still believes homosexual acts are disordered and sinful. That, after all, is what the catechism says, too." See, Jamie Manson gets it!  http://ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins...emain-same
Maureen Fiedler who writes the "Francis Chronicles" at NCR just fired some shots at the Pope for excommunicating an Australian priest Father Gregory Reynolds who favors women's ordination among other things. She is also annoyed at Pope Francis support of actions taken against the LCWR. The investigation of the LCWR was begun under Pope Benedict. By approving it Francis is signaling continuity with Pope Benedict on an issue near and dear to the hearts of the deluded NCR and its readers. Take a look: http://ncronline.org/blogs/francis-chron...ease-stand
The way I see Pope Francis is that he has done a good job of confusing liberal Catholics and traditionalists and he has having a honeymoon of sorts with the secular media but that won't last because sooner or later they are going to realize he is still Catholic and will uphold Catholic doctrine.

C.

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