# of souls in heaven: Voris vs. Barron
#11
I know what Father Barron is going for. It still seems most imprudent. What many people will take away from what he said is that maybe no one is in Hell. Jesus, when He physically walked this earth, did not talk that way. Saint Peter did not talk that way. Saint Paul did not talk that way. The Church Fathers didn't talk that way. It all comes off as being Origen-lite universalism. It isn't universalism, but it seems to encourage such an attitude. I'm not a Hell fire and brimstone sort either, but let us remember that that should be the greatest fear while we live. Unrepentant and wicked men go to hell. Period. God is infinitely merciful, but men can be perfectly selfish.
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#12
I think the key is to understand that Jesus told us to aim for heaven--not purgatory, and that few make it directly to heaven, and most will go through severe punishment in the lowest depth of the suffering state the Church calls Purgatory. The hell of the damned is reserved forever for the devil and his angels and those who reject God, Who is Truth, Goodness and Love itself.


Notice the stern warning Jesus gives about Purgatory:

"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."--Matt. 5:25


"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart." --Matt. 18:32-35

In Luke 12:47-48 when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master:

“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.-Luke 12:47-48

In the end, hell is the garbage can for wasted lives---the souls of those who lived for themselves.  Jesus Himself describes these souls in the Apocalypse:
"Blessed are they that wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb: that they may have a right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.  Without are dogs, and sorcerers, and unchaste, and murderers, and servers of idols, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent my angel, to testify to you these things in the churches." --Apocalypse 22:14-16



Here is a video of a man who had a mystical experience and was damned to hell yet saw the pains of purgatory. His story was featured in the Inside the Vatican magazine and his story was referenced by EWTN's Fr. Joseph in one of his homilies.




If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth not?--1 John 4:20
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#13
Two sources on the Necessity of belonging to the Church when it comes to salvation.  The first one is very simple and comes from what I believe was a book used to teach the Faith in High Schools in the 1950's.  The second is from the section on the Church in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Fr. Ludwig Ott. 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7fZscRM...sp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7fZscRM...sp=sharing

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#14
(10-21-2013, 10:02 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote: Two sources on the Necessity of belonging to the Church when it comes to salvation.  The first one is very simple and comes from what I believe was a book used to teach the Faith in High Schools in the 1950's.  The second is from the section on the Church in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Fr. Ludwig Ott. 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7fZscRM...sp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7fZscRM...sp=sharing


The word church is English for the Greek Ekklesia, which is a translation of the Hebrew word Cahal, which simply means "The People of God". Here are some of the clues as to who belongs among the People of God:


My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me.-John 10:27

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.--Matthew 12:50

By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.-John 13:35

And whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. John answered him, saying: Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, who followeth not us, and we forbade him.  But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name, and can soon speak ill of me. For he that is not against you, is for you. For whosoever shall give you to drink a cup of water in my name, because you belong to Christ: amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward. -Mark 9:37-40

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#15
(10-21-2013, 10:02 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote: Two sources on the Necessity of belonging to the Church when it comes to salvation.  The first one is very simple and comes from what I believe was a book used to teach the Faith in High Schools in the 1950's.  The second is from the section on the Church in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Fr. Ludwig Ott. 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7fZscRM...sp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7fZscRM...sp=sharing

Thanks for the links S.A. God bless.
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#16
(10-22-2013, 10:01 AM)DeoGratias72 Wrote:
(10-21-2013, 10:02 PM)Sant Anselmo Wrote: Two sources on the Necessity of belonging to the Church when it comes to salvation.  The first one is very simple and comes from what I believe was a book used to teach the Faith in High Schools in the 1950's.  The second is from the section on the Church in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Fr. Ludwig Ott. 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7fZscRM...sp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7fZscRM...sp=sharing

Thanks for the links S.A. God bless.

You're welcome!
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