A Single Post That Explains Why Toxic Trads Are Not Welcome Here
Yeah, it's definitely something that'll need to be hammered out between the Rome and those using the 1962 Missal, which I dont think should just remain frozen in time forever.

On the matter of JPII, I am thankful for his 1984 and 1988 documents allowing for the diocesan use of the TLM, the creation of the diverse fraternities like the FSSP and the ICKSP, and the instructions with led to the revision of the English NO. But I wish they would've waited longer in order to really investigate what he knew and when he knew it in regards to the various sex scandals.

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(10-26-2013, 09:23 PM)Bakuryokuso Wrote: There are probably lots of "regular" Catholics going to heaven while perhaps many traditional Catholics stew in purgatory or are lost. You could definitely be holier than a bitter, resentful person who attends the Extraordinary Form somewhere.

What Monsignor Lefebvre and others propose is that the Traditional Latin Mass is inherently and objectively superior than even a "perfect" Novus Ordo (in Latin, as Orientem, offered by the Pope himself). A TLM is more Catholic, it better expresses Catholic faith and belief. A comparison of the Missals makes that clear enough. Even in the Breviary, they cut out entire Psalms in the Novus Ordo. It doesn't mean that the Liturgy of the Hours doesn't fulfill a priest's obligation for daily recitation, but it has been demonstrably watered down.

So, all things being equal, if you're equidistant between an FSSP Mass and a Novus Ordo and decide to attend the Novus Ordo, that's fine, but I question whether you fulfill the definition of a "traditional Catholic" as expressed on the main Fish Eaters site.

The way I sort of see it is that traditional Catholicism makes the attainment of holiness easier for me personally. And I want to put all my time and energy into the success of a Traditional Latin Mass because it provides more graces to those who assist at it devoutly because it's richer in prayers, more Catholic, and more reverent. And the silly abuses that are present at virtually every Sunday Novus Ordo - EMHC's, standing for communion in the hand, vernacular Mass in non-Mission lands, female altar servers and lectors, are enough to send me off to the TLM. If we have the choice, I think we need to "vote with our feet".

And it even goes to the rituals. Think of the blessing of holy water. Our priest prepares a fresh batch of holy water every Sunday and I bring it back to the fonts near the church doors. The traditional rite includes the addition of salt and the exorcisms. It's quite different than the modern rite. And our priest told my son: we use holy water to ward off demons. My son and I prayed the St. Michael prayer with the congregation after Mass this morning.. you'll agree that's rather rare in the NO! So it's an overall different philosophy that pervades and permeates the TLM, which is why we're attached to it.

But I mean, Blessed John Paul II is being canonized soon so you can get to heaven without the TLM.


I think this says things very well.

TLM is very, very, very important - and yet there are no doubt countless souls deeply enriched through pious participation in the NO. (The question is what would those same pious souls be like if they had TLM instead. Their whole lives would be even more charged with the faith, I strongly suspect.)

Like you Bakuryokuso, my wife and I go daily to Mass and its back and forth between TLM and Novus Ordo.

At the moment, it actually has to be more the NO. No other choice. My wife particularly finds the NO unbearable. She really weeps at this. But we need Mass daily and so we go.

But there is a strange "advantage" in going back and forth between the NO and TLM - one becomes ever more conscious of the difference between the two, often in quite subtle yet important ways.

My wife could say a lot more about this - she has a sensitivity for liturgy that is very, very subtle, that, dare I say it, IMHO sometimes seems to me almost bordering on the mystical to me. She sees, feels these very, very subtle things that I am too dense to register.

Due to an eye problem, she can't look at computers - so unfortunately can't participate in this forum. I do upload a blog for her so may try to get her to say more there.


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The bottom line is how is this situation influencing the church militant since most who actually post here are trying to grow closer to God; does it build or destroy faith, cause scandal or aid in growth of virtue? Charity for a protected group is commendable, but charity for those whom should know better than to cast stones is commendable as well, for in our fallen nature we sometimes know not what we do and it may take years to have eyes to see, ears to hear....  and it is charity to speak the truth. Separating Catholics doesn't seem to be the best answer because people have an opportunity to grow in grace individually and for the Church.


Seriously......Certain subjects needn't be the spotlight constantly, particularly the rare personal issue that has been dominating the forum for too long now, causing scandal. The topic is so rare, individualized and complicated that the person really should seek refuge and spiritual direction from a priest and stop there, carry that cross privately; which causes a question of motive because it has not been to the benefit of or neutral to the forum either.


Let us not lose sight of the reason we are here; to grow in Christ.
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(10-27-2013, 03:56 AM)candyapple Wrote: The bottom line is how is this situation influencing the church militant since most who actually post here are trying to grow closer to God; does it build or destroy faith, cause scandal or aid in growth of virtue? Charity for a protected group is commendable, but charity for those whom should know better than to cast stones is commendable as well, for in our fallen nature we sometimes know not what we do and it may take years to have eyes to see, ears to hear....  and it is charity to speak the truth. Separating Catholics doesn't seem to be the best answer because people have an opportunity to grow in grace individually and for the Church.

Seriously......Certain subjects needn't be the spotlight constantly, particularly the rare personal issue that has been dominating the forum for too long now, causing scandal. The topic is so rare, individualized and complicated that the person really should seek refuge and spiritual direction from a priest and stop there, carry that cross privately; which causes a question of motive because it has not been to the benefit of or neutral to the forum either.

Let us not lose sight of the reason we are here; to grow in Christ.

Candyapple, those certain subjects" I think you're referring to -- homosexuality and transsexualism -- would be subjects I'd be happy -- nay, THRILLED -- to not ever have to talk about again. But the Toxic Trads won't let it go and make snide remarks, and respond to posts about what the homosexualist activists are doing with disgusting language for and attitudes toward homosexuals as a group (rather than homosexual activists) that I refuse to let them get away with it and not say anything. And they do this in response to posts I, MYSELF, make about what those activists are doing -- and throw in cheap shots at me, as if, in spite of my posting about what the activists are doing (!!!), I'm part of some "lavender mafia."  It doesn't even make sense. Apparently I must be soooooooooooooo uniquely brilliant (HA!) that I'm one of the few people around here who can see the major differences between the meanings of "homosexual" and "active homosexual" and "homosexual or homosexualist activists" *** and will not sit idly by while innocent homosexuals are lumped in with sin and enemies of the Church. To me, it's just not that hard, and for people to continue to conflate those groups is completely ridiculous and unnecessarily inflammatory. 

That just happened yesterday: I -- me -- I post an article about a Bishop fighting against homosexualist activists -- and get a response back intimating that that Bishop wouldn't be allowed to post here. Say what?! The folks who put me in a box because I defend people with disorders -- well, it's just too bad. But their slamming this apostolate or slandering me because of their unwillingness or inability to understand something so very simple a monkey could figure it out, their twisting my words to mean the exact opposite of what I say -- well, that's evil.

In other words, those subjects won't go away until people stop hating on homosexuals qua homosexuals. That's all there is to it. If I can't post an article about what some homosexual activist group is doing without getting some response going on about "sods" and "homos," then people will keep hearing my defenses of homosexuals as homosexuals -- i.e. people with a disorder that makes them sexually attracted to members of their own sex. FishEaters will NOT be a place to beat up on people with disorders. It just won't be.

Second, "Transgendergate" hasn't caused "scandal" at all. I'd bet $10 on it. It's caused people to freak out, to be shocked, to run off, and to be absolutely convinced I'm wrong while they're refusing to do the simple thing of printing out a post and giving it to their priests and talking about it with them instead of casting stones at me and running off in a huff  -- but "scandal" means something very specific, and I doubt there's one single person out there who ran off and got a sex-change operation after reading about the Vatican directive. People who think they are disagreeing with ME over this are wrong. They are disagreeing with a Vatican directive. But I'm not a sedevacantist, and FE isn't a sede site. So that's ultimately their problem. (BTW, I've not gotten ONE PM or ONE email from someone who's taken that post to his priest and been told that I'm wrong. Not ONE.)

As to "separating Catholics":  sounds great in theory to have all Catholics together, esp. trads. But the fact is that some trads are, indeed, toxic. My post on Facebook about what I'm doing here in driving off the Toxic Trads has gotten, so far, [Vox: edited to change 1,064 to 36]****36 LIKES. People are fed up with those people. I know I am. They harm the Body of Christ, they harm this aposolate, they're a pain in my ass, they seem to never quit or learn anything, I'm just done with them. I can't have them here undoing what I'm trying to do -- and undo it is exactly what they're doing. They need prayer, but they don't need to be here chasing souls away from Jesus and His Church. No way.




*** For those who still don't understand:

homosexual:  a person with same-sex attraction, which is a disorder, but not a sin. They are to be treated with charity and compassion. Since Catholics are to assume the best about another, one should assume that any given homosexual is chaste unless one is shown otherwise. Name-calling and nastiness showed toward them is NOT the Catholic way. People with disorders are not our enemies.

active homosexual: a person who sins by acting on the desires inherent in the disorder called homosexuality or same-sex attraction. When talking about homosexual sinners, one should always remove the beam from one's own eye first and refrain from judging souls, hating the sin while loving the sinner.

homosexual activist or homosexualist activist:  a person, homosexual or not, who is politically active in trying to attain acceptance of homosexual sex, gay "marriage," etc. These people, knowingly or not, are enemies of the Church and civilization.

Really, IS it that hard to undertand? Really?


ETA:  **** I was looking at the FB page -- and saw that I made a MAJOR mistake. I'd written that the post about this got 1,064 likes -- but it actually has "only" 36! Oops! What the deal is is that I opened that FB post on its own page and saw the "Likes" for FISHEATERS and thought it was "Likes" for that post LOL  BIG difference between 1,064 and 36! But still, most of the comments have been very supportive. Actually, all have except for two people hung up on the "Transgendergate" issue -- undoubtedly two people who never bothered to print out the original post in the Transgenderism ONCE and for ALL thread and give it to their priests to get their opinions. SIGH!
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Vox, these "toxic trads" are part of the reason why I don't post here that much anymore. I looked for compassion and encouragement and got beat up instead. NOT by everyone, true, but certain ones who you've rightly banned for being toxic.

As you know, I have those mental illnesses that I can't stop complaining about, now added with type 2 diabetes, neuropathy and recently arthritis. I get easily discouraged and depressed and hate suffering, especially now. I don't trust any priest to be a spiritual director for me, for I don't know if they are orthodox or modernist. And I don't go to Mass or Confession for I'm angry toward Jesus for permitting me to be this way from all Eternity - and not even telling me why on my level of understanding.

I complain and beg and plead Him once a day, every day, to cure me first and nothing happens. How can I trust Him if He won't do this? And those toxic folks only made it worse for me.

Vox, thank you for purging them from FE. I hope it will make it easier for me and other folks like me to come back and interact more. Please keep me in your prayers, for I need them bad if I am EVER to escape Hell when I die and be healed of my sicknesses in this life.

Thank you so very, very much.
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The Spanish Carlists refer to any brand of gays, lesbians, transgendereds, bisexuals or whatever as a single word.  That word pretty much sums them all up: "aberro-sexual"; as in, someone with an aberrant sexuality, their sexuality is an aberration.

Aberro-sexual.  It covers not only sodomites but also people with weird fetishes, like furries.

They're all aberro-sexuals.  What do you all think of the term?  :hmmm:
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(10-27-2013, 09:26 AM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote: The Spanish Carlists refer to any brand of gays, lesbians, transgendereds, bisexuals or whatever as a single word.  That word pretty much sums them all up: "aberro-sexual"; as in, someone with an aberrant sexuality, their sexuality is an aberration.

Aberro-sexual.  It covers not only sodomites but also people with weird fetishes, like furries.

They're all aberro-sexuals.  What do you all think of the term?  :hmmm:

Does it include masturbators and pornography addicts?
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(10-25-2013, 09:14 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(10-25-2013, 07:55 AM)Tim Wrote: You know one would think Catholics would understand this going in. If we embrace being Catholic, this shouldn't be a problem. Being like Christ is dealing with sinners in a charitable way. Christ ate with hookers, con men (tax collectors),the poor, and the ones that were in charge. He saved His most blistering criticism for the ones in charge who knew everything. The woman at Jacob's well, He said go and sin no more, and she was a Samaritan. But every time a Pharisee set a trap for him he gored him with the spirit of the law not the letter. There is a lesson here for me and you all.

tim

First, to Maldon, THANK you for being supportive. I need that right now, and appreciate it!

Tim, yes. "To whom much is given, much is required" -- and trads have been given everything. Much is required of us -- a lot more than what the rad-trads are coming up with, that's for sure.

You said, "One would think Catholics would understand this" -- and that some self-professed Catholics seem not to makes me wonder about their understanding of the Faith and their relationship with Christ. If my disallowing jugmentalism, rudeness, disrespectful criticism of the Holy Father, and a general lack of charity is "off-putting" or "controversial" to anyone, I really have no words for them. Except "well, bye." I can even see some posters at a certain other forum calling this move "scandalous" or seeing it as "evidence" that I'm not and have never been a traditional Catholic, and that now "FE is just another CAF." Again, I got no words. If believing everything on this page doesn't make one a trad, then what the heck does, in those people's eyes?

Actually, I think I know how they'd answer that. Here goes:  "What Vox doesn't understand is that it's more than about believing a few things and attending the TLM (as long as it's SSPX or sede only). It's about being holy. And being holy involves [this they won't say in these words, but it's what they'll mean if you know those folks!] being angry, being bitter, not wearing pants if you're female, being mean to homosexuals, hating Jews, interpreting EENS in a way that means that no one but rad-trads get to Heaven, etc." 
I've not kept up with much of what goes on here for a couple of years but that ugly mug Tim seems to get an awful lot of things pretty right in my estimation.

But I think that being Catholic is not just about where you go for Sacraments... it's a belief system and an action system, beautifully and accurately summarised in the Credo and the "Penny Catechism".
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(10-27-2013, 09:29 AM)Clare Brigid Wrote:
(10-27-2013, 09:26 AM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote: The Spanish Carlists refer to any brand of gays, lesbians, transgendereds, bisexuals or whatever as a single word.  That word pretty much sums them all up: "aberro-sexual"; as in, someone with an aberrant sexuality, their sexuality is an aberration.

Aberro-sexual.  It covers not only sodomites but also people with weird fetishes, like furries.

They're all aberro-sexuals.  What do you all think of the term?  :hmmm:

Does it include masturbators and pornography addicts?

Depends.  Do these masturbators and porn addicts view their lifestyle as normal and defend it?  If so... aberrosexuals.

If they have a legitimate problem that they recognize as a problem, not a lifestyle, I think that's different.
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(10-27-2013, 09:25 AM)HailGilbert Wrote: As you know, I have those mental illnesses that I can't stop complaining about, now added with type 2 diabetes, neuropathy and recently arthritis. I get easily discouraged and depressed and hate suffering, especially now. I don't trust any priest to be a spiritual director for me, for I don't know if they are orthodox or modernist. And I don't go to Mass or Confession for I'm angry toward Jesus for permitting me to be this way from all Eternity - and not even telling me why on my level of understanding.

I complain and beg and plead Him once a day, every day, to cure me first and nothing happens. How can I trust Him if He won't do this? And those toxic folks only made it worse for me.

I really have been there.  I went about 4 years without going up for Holy Communion and the effects of that were very bad for me.  Talking to a priest is hard especially if you're not sure who to trust.  I was struggling with some very maddening, personal mental health issues and it was very difficult to find a priest I could talk to with a straight face.  Please don't let your anger drive you away from the Sacraments, though.  It is a very human thing, to wrestle with God and be angry.  Our Lord felt every single human emotion when he walked this earth including anger, and that feeling of "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"  Please go to Confession and Mass and trust that Jesus has been where you are, and the Sacraments will afford you the intimate relationship you need with him to get past those feelings.  There is no joy and no peace outside of God and His Church.  I know it is difficult when you struggle to even sit through the Mass, but the graces are there, and He sees all of your efforts.

I also have wrestled with God over my frequent prayers for healing that seem to go unanswered.  One thing we must all understand is that the "health and wealth Gospel" is a sham.  Truly, God will wipe away every tear and heal every single human malady.  The Cross has conquered sin, death, physical illness and mental illness, and all those other sources of human suffering.  However, the healing that God promises does not specifically take place in this life.  Christ certainly healed many people miraculously, to show us that He was indeed fully Divine as well as fully human, and to show us that he was the Divine Physician who will take away the sin, death and disease.  However the vast majority of souls who achieve heaven experience healing in the next life.  In Purgatory, the soul is cleansed and healed of its attachment to sin and vice so that it is pure and holy enough for the everlasting joy of Heaven.  In the Resurrection of the dead, God will give us glorified bodies--you, only perfect.  The way you were meant to be before the Fall.

My wife and I have prayed many times for me to be healed of various health issues.  We have had Masses offered for my healing, said many Rosaries, etc.  It's hard when it seems like God is saying "No."  But in reality He is not saying "No," He is saying, "Not now--later."  I get the sense in my prayer life that He is allowing me to live with what I live with because it is the cross that I am going to carry to heaven, and it is also something He allows my family to experience because maybe He wants to draw them closer to Himself through my suffering.  I have a lot of days where I still wonder why I bother, I get very tempted to say "f*** THIS I'm GOING ON HOSPICE" but God's plan in my life is still unfolding and unraveling, and I get the sense that He isn't done with me, and I am trying to let Him accomplish what He is trying to accomplish with my suffering.  I wish He would restore my physical and mental function on Earth and while I've felt a lot of anger that He is not doing this, it has helped to look at the big picture and understand that if I carry this cross my whole life, I will eventually experience Divine Healing in heaven. 

Some well-meaning but toxic people have tried to make me feel bad for not having been miraculously healed.  A Protestant nurse at dialysis with a "Word-Faith" mentality used to give me a lot of crap about it until I asked for a new nurse and told her to shove off.  Especially in the area of mental illness, I think there is a tendency among trads to make it seem like depression, anxiety and other disorders can be healed simply through prayer, and if you're still suffering then you're Obviously Doing It All Wrong.  Some people have no idea what they're talking about.  They have no idea what it means to find Jesus in the depths of your suffering.

So rest assured that He does intend to heal you physically, spiritually and emotionally.  He will not permit you to suffer this way for all eternity.  That is, if you follow Him on earth and carry your cross to Heaven.  He has not abandoned you, rather He is there with you, and holding the cross alongside you, pointing you to the healing that is to come.
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