A Single Post That Explains Why Toxic Trads Are Not Welcome Here
(10-28-2013, 05:27 AM)PolishTrad Wrote:
"John64" Wrote:I've noticed this behavior at my diocese only Latin community.  I've also gotten many cold receptions and dirty looks..... As someone fairly new to the Tradional movement it really surprised me and disappointed me. Lately I quit doing the long drive and go to the local NO service on Saturday evening and participate in the live mass online on Sunday mornings at Christ the King Catholic church.
I think it might be a coincidence. Since I started to attend our diocesan TLM, nobody at all talked to me before or after the mass and nobody was staring at me. Which is pretty OK for me, as I'm not the socialising type. Also I see new faces every Sunday. Maybe at SSPX or, say, SSPV chapels it's different as they're more hermetic, but I wonder, actually, why should it be so.

I prefer attending the chapels with the cold environments.  The places with warm-hearted, friendly people usually drive me crazy when folks start trying to pressure me into attending their after Mass social events with coffee, donuts and chit chat.  I don't eat donuts, drink coffee, enjoy idle small talk or care for picnics.  That being said, circumstances usually place me in the friendly ones anyway.

The purpose of attending Mass is to honor God, obtain graces and give thanksgiving.  If dealing with people that have incompatible personalities is part of the mix, that's a small price to pay.  It's certainly much easier then something like risking martyrdom at the hands of the English authorities for attending Mass.
Reply
(10-28-2013, 08:06 PM)Akavit Wrote:
(10-28-2013, 05:27 AM)PolishTrad Wrote:
"John64" Wrote:I've noticed this behavior at my diocese only Latin community.  I've also gotten many cold receptions and dirty looks..... As someone fairly new to the Tradional movement it really surprised me and disappointed me. Lately I quit doing the long drive and go to the local NO service on Saturday evening and participate in the live mass online on Sunday mornings at Christ the King Catholic church.
I think it might be a coincidence. Since I started to attend our diocesan TLM, nobody at all talked to me before or after the mass and nobody was staring at me. Which is pretty OK for me, as I'm not the socialising type. Also I see new faces every Sunday. Maybe at SSPX or, say, SSPV chapels it's different as they're more hermetic, but I wonder, actually, why should it be so.

I prefer attending the chapels with the cold environments.  The places with warm-hearted, friendly people usually drive me crazy when folks start trying to pressure me into attending their after Mass social events with coffee, donuts and chit chat.  I don't eat donuts, drink coffee, enjoy idle small talk or care for picnics.  That being said, circumstances usually place me in the friendly ones anyway.

The purpose of attending Mass is to honor God, obtain graces and give thanksgiving.  If dealing with people that have incompatible personalities is part of the mix, that's a small price to pay.  It's certainly much easier then something like risking martyrdom at the hands of the English authorities for attending Mass.

It's just so that some folks are more loner types than others, and that's fine and good, of course. And it's also a fact that the purpose of Mass is to worship God. But it's also true that one aspect of belonging to the Church is community (though I've come to dislike that word LOL), and I'd guess that MOST folks would love to be walked up to after Mass and invited to eat the donuts and drink the coffee. And that's great, too.

I hope you don't let the "friendly folks" drive you crazy -- and I hope they respect that you're a loner. Body language is a good thing to know in those sorts of situations LOL

I also hope that those who aren't loners and who aren't being approached after Mass might consider doing the approaching themselves, even if they're the newbies. Consider that that parish might be a "cold" sort of place that is actually filled with folks who wish it were warmer, but aren't doing the initiating. Be the change you want to see! If there are no coffee and donuts after Mass, go ask the priest how to get something like that going! Folks seem to always be waiting for the other guy to get things going, to start new things, to be the ones to donate for things, etc., but I think it's a good idea to approach things as if much depends on you, yourself. I think the world would be a better place if more folks were to do that, anyway.

Reply
(10-28-2013, 08:20 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: ...Folks seem to always be waiting for the other guy to get things going, to start new things, to be the ones to donate for things, etc., but I think it's a good idea to approach things as if much depends on you, yourself. I think the world would be a better place if more folks were to do that, anyway

You set a good example with Fisheaters, Vox! :)
Reply
I was being melodramatic when I said they drive me crazy so no, they really don't bother me at all and they figure out quickly enough not to be over-bearing.


Mostly I just wanted to give people a reminder that what seems to be stand-offish behavior is often little more than the result of people merrily going about their business in a quiet, unobtrusive manner.  It's usually a mistake to think that they are keeping themselves apart out of some feelings of snobbery or superiority.

One thing to consider with Latin Masses at diocesan churches is that the traditionalist church-goers get used to seeing a handful of stragglers from the Novus Ordo community show up every week because the Latin Mass happened to fit their schedule better than the English Mass.  These people typically rush out of the church as soon as Mass is over (or right after Communion) so everyone knows they're not really looking to be a part of the Latin Mass community.  After awhile, one gets conditioned to seeing these folks and anyone who looks like them (tend to wear casual clothing and look uncomfortable with the actions of the Mass) automatically gets mentally assigned to the same group.  In other words, the regulars will probably fail to notice newcomers immediately if they blend into this group of people.

Now if someone who always attends the Novus Ordo shows up and is actually interested in participating in the community, he may find that the regulars don't bother to speak to him.  They've already assumed he's not interested in sticking around.  When this fellow does stay put he'll likely get glances of curiosity thrown his way.  It would be easy to mistake these for the evil eye but in reality, it's just the natural tendency for people to size up an unfamiliar person while wondering if he's going to say something.  Oftentimes the newcomer just needs to introduce himself before people will relax and start talking freely.

For those people who really want to be a part of a group, it's important to gently break into it by means of an self-introduction.  Look around for that one person who can't stop talking to everyone and say hello to that person.  Once you're friends with the person that knows everyone you'll get introduced to the others in rapid order.
Reply
(10-28-2013, 10:36 PM)Doce Me Wrote:
(10-28-2013, 08:20 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: ...Folks seem to always be waiting for the other guy to get things going, to start new things, to be the ones to donate for things, etc., but I think it's a good idea to approach things as if much depends on you, yourself. I think the world would be a better place if more folks were to do that, anyway

You set a good example with Fisheaters, Vox! :)

Aww, THANKS, Doce Me! I'm a-tryin', anyway! LOL
Reply
(10-28-2013, 10:57 PM)Akavit Wrote: For those people who really want to be a part of a group, it's important to gently break into it by means of an self-introduction.  Look around for that one person who can't stop talking to everyone and say hello to that person.  Once you're friends with the person that knows everyone you'll get introduced to the others in rapid order.

I agree with everything you said, yup! I think this last part is really important, though. People just have to show more initiative in the trad world -- be the guy who introduces yourself if you are wanting community, if you're trapped in a NO Parish, be the guy who gets the TLM started there, if women are showing up unveiled, be the person who starts a little group to buy chapel veils to keep in the narthex (or to give to women who can't afford mantillas!), if the RCIA in your parish sucks, be the guy who takes over the class and teaches it himself (!!!).. Light a candle instead of cursing the darkness (well, or at least while cursing the darkness. A person's gotta kvetch sometimes, too LOL)

If not you, then who?

Reply
I think this needs to be said, esp for VoxClamantis’ sake.

There are plenty of "internet warrior" trads, but the trads I've met in the flesh have been VERY charitable. Much more than their Novus Ordo counterparts.

THE MOST ABUSE I'VE RECEIVED HAVE BEEN FROM NOVUS ORDOITES.

Threatening to kick me out of the church for having my phone out (on silent)--neoconservative security guard.

Yelling at me IN THE CHURCH because I was 15 minutes in the confession line after Mass and my Novus Ordo ride just had to get to Starbucks after Mass.--Novus Ordo person (she stranded me there in the boonies)

Flinging the schism label on my chapel in the course of conversation--charismatic Novus Ordoite (aren't Charismatics supposed to be the nice loving ones?)

I have mostly seen charity from trads, though. Trads have offered me rides WAY out of their way without even thinking about it. And they have been VERY patient with other people's rudeness. People have more cellphone etiquette at a movie theater than at Mass, and I have rarely seen a trad even shush them. I have seen so many examples of heroic longsuffering from trads in conversation and demeanor. They can be out of their minds, but rarely mean.

Interestingly, levels of charity are not demarcated along the standard dividing lines. I have seen ornery sedevacantists and charitable sedevacantists. Ornery SSPXers and charitable SSPXers. Rude Diocesans and charitable Diocesans. To date, MOST trads have been incredibly charitable (1st prize to independent chapels), and the MEANIST have been the Novus Ordo neoconservatives, hands down.

I think what's going on here is that trads have become the people that everyone likes to beat with a stick. Trads are the evil people we're all allowed to hate. So lets hate those bad trads because they're haters--we just know they are, everyone "knows" it.

"See the lady in the corner with the veil? She must be a trad. I just KNOW she's judging me. Let's go kick the evil witch while she prays. Let's talk trash about her and her kind." (See what happened? Who actually did the kicking here? Who was REALLY doing all the judging?)

In other words, I think this is pharisaic scandal and just another cheap shot at trads.
Reply
(10-29-2013, 12:39 AM)charlesh Wrote: I think this needs to be said, esp for VoxClamantis’ sake.

There are plenty of "internet warrior" trads, but the trads I've met in the flesh have been VERY charitable. Much more than their Novus Ordo counterparts.

THE MOST ABUSE I'VE RECEIVED HAVE BEEN FROM NOVUS ORDOITES.

Threatening to kick me out of the church for having my phone out (on silent)--neoconservative security guard.

Yelling at me IN THE CHURCH because I was 15 minutes in the confession line after Mass and my Novus Ordo ride just had to get to Starbucks after Mass.--Novus Ordo person (she stranded me there in the boonies)

Flinging the schism label on my chapel in the course of conversation--charismatic Novus Ordoite (aren't Charismatics supposed to be the nice loving ones?)

I have mostly seen charity from trads, though. Trads have offered me rides WAY out of their way without even thinking about it. And they have been VERY patient with other people's rudeness. People have more cellphone etiquette at a movie theater than at Mass, and I have rarely seen a trad even shush them. I have seen so many examples of heroic longsuffering from trads in conversation and demeanor. They can be out of their minds, but rarely mean.

Interestingly, levels of charity are not demarcated along the standard dividing lines. I have seen ornery sedevacantists and charitable sedevacantists. Ornery SSPXers and charitable SSPXers. Rude Diocesans and charitable Diocesans. To date, MOST trads have been incredibly charitable (1st prize to independent chapels), and the MEANIST have been the Novus Ordo neoconservatives, hands down.

I think what's going on here is that trads have become the people that everyone likes to beat with a stick. Trads are the evil people we're all allowed to hate. So lets hate those bad trads because they're haters--we just know they are, everyone "knows" it.

"See the lady in the corner with the veil? She must be a trad. I just KNOW she's judging me. Let's go kick the evil witch while she prays. Let's talk trash about her and her kind." (See what happened? Who actually did the kicking here? Who was REALLY doing all the judging?)

In other words, I think this is pharisaic scandal and just another cheap shot at trads.

Charlesh, I AM a trad. I veil at Mass, too. I've been offered rides to Mass before. The purpose of my site is to get folks to become trads (http://www.fisheaters.com/traditionalcatholicism.html). My real life experiences with trads match yours.

What I'm talking about is Toxic Trads -- a mostly online phenomenon (let us pray) that keeps people from even looking toward Tradition. This has nothing whatsoever to do with "trads" per se. But it is a very real, very serious, and very BIG problem for folks trying to bring souls to Tradition.

Reply
(10-28-2013, 10:57 PM)Akavit Wrote: One thing to consider with Latin Masses at diocesan churches is that the traditionalist church-goers get used to seeing a handful of stragglers from the Novus Ordo community show up every week because the Latin Mass happened to fit their schedule better than the English Mass.  These people typically rush out of the church as soon as Mass is over (or right after Communion) so everyone knows they're not really looking to be a part of the Latin Mass community.  After awhile, one gets conditioned to seeing these folks and anyone who looks like them (tend to wear casual clothing and look uncomfortable with the actions of the Mass) automatically gets mentally assigned to the same group.  In other words, the regulars will probably fail to notice newcomers immediately if they blend into this group of people.

I know exactly what you mean!!!  We have seen people who come in and then look bewildered as soon as Mass starts and it's not what they think.  Sometimes the friendly thing to do is to hand them one of the little red Latin Mass booklets and show them where we are in the Mass if they're confused, or say hi afterwards.  Many people I know who "stumble upon" the Latin Mass eventually become trads, if they're not scared away by the toxic trads and "crunchy cat" types.  I mean, how could you not?  It's like comparing a pesticide-laden GMO Foodtown-brand carrot to an organic heirloom carrot from a family farm grown in rich soil.  They're both ontologically carrots but one tastes better and has more nutrients and no carcinogens or poisons. 
Reply
(10-28-2013, 01:07 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(10-27-2013, 11:14 PM)HailGilbert Wrote: (snip

That includes my Dad, who isn't formally diagnosed but has a lot of the symptoms. His verbal and emotional abuse of me when I was growing up - especially when he was drunk - broke my spirit. It is still broken today. Our relationship, since I moved out, is much, much better but the pain and anger towards him remains in the background.

(snip about Aspergers, Type 2 diabetes and resulting neuropathy and sleeplessness, propensity toward alcoholism but not indulging (though craving sweets)

And since late July, when I had a CT scan, ultrasound and MRI scan done on me, I was told I have arthritis in my lower back. And it only adds to my pain and anger.   

Hail Gilibert from  an earlier post Wrote:As you know, I have those mental illnesses that I can't stop complaining about, now added with type 2 diabetes, neuropathy and recently arthritis. I get easily discouraged and depressed and hate suffering, especially now. I don't trust any priest to be a spiritual director for me, for I don't know if they are orthodox or modernist. And I don't go to Mass or Confession for I'm angry toward Jesus for permitting me to be this way from all Eternity - and not even telling me why on my level of understanding.

I complain and beg and plead Him once a day, every day, to cure me first and nothing happens. How can I trust Him if He won't do this? 

From Hail Gilbert from  an earlier post Wrote:Thank you in advance for your prayers and good wishes. To me, though, His sending me crosses are not acts of love but abandonment. If I'm not going to be healed in this life, then I'd rather be dead and soon. Why? It tells me Jesus doesn't love me enough to apply the merits of His sufferings and death on the Cross to heal me in this life. And in turn, it tells me He doesn't love me enough - period. ..

(snip
... If He won't cure me, then He doesn't love me.

From Hail Gilbert from an earlier post Wrote:I don't want to be a victim soul. It means I'm being picked on and bullied again like when I was a child and teenager.

From Hail Gilbert in an earlier post Wrote:don't want to be like this for the rest of my life. Otherwise, I'm not a man but a sub-human freak, not loved enough to be cured but to be treated like a punching bag in a boxers gym. And who really loves a punching bag?

So long as He keeps allowing me to be broken, mentally and physically, He is hurting me. How can I love Him 100% when He keeps allowing me to be in pain and mentally ill? Please keep praying for me so I don't go to Hell after death and stop running from Him in this life. thank you in advance.

From Hail Gilbert in an earlier post Wrote:Then I leave it. He doesn't love me enough.  Cry(

So much comes to my mind putting all these posts together. First is that you naturally (MOST people do this!) sort of take on an emotional response to God, Our Father, that's flavored by the relationship you had/have with your natural father. And, barring supernatural grace, I don't think this -- or you, mentally speaking, will be healed until you've truly and deeply grieved and dealt with the anger over the way your Dad abused you.

"Trust" and "abandonment" and "not being loved" are recurring themes when you talk about how you feel about Our Heavenly Father. I'm sure you know intellectually that God the Father isn't your Dad, and that God is Infinite Love and All Good, etc. -- but because you haven't really worked through the ANGER and the PAIN, the GRIEF of what your Dad did to you, you're stuck in the same pain and rage that's plagued you since you were a little boy, and this pain and rage gets in the way of your trusting God as a Father.

Your Dad abused you and emotionally abandoned you. He failed to emotionally affirm you. You say he "broke" your spirit, and you refer often to that brokenness, to feeling like a freak and a punching bag, to seeing your various issues and medical conditions more as punishments or as a sign of -- well, betrayal on the part of our Heavenly Father, just like your Dad betrayed you by not doing for you what he should have done for you.

You have every right in the world to feel anger and pain over your Dad's failures to give you what you needed and, as a little, innocent boy, deserved. You'd be abnormal if you didn't feel those things! But you have to find a way to work through them  and -- ultimately, FORGIVE him. Not just in mere words, but from the heart, relying on Christ and the Sacraments to help you do that.

I'm not at all disregarding your other medical issues, but my sense is that THIS is what's at the root of the vast majority of your psychic PAIN. You have go get to the place of forgiving your Dad -- but you have to allow yourself to FEEL -- with someone else who will HEAR you -- what he did to you, and to get angry about it, and then get sad about it (or vice versa, as the case may be), and then come to hand it over to Jesus.

I really, really, so pray that you find yourself a good Catholic counselor or spiritual director who will walk you through this and help you navigate what was done to you, help you look at it dead in the eye and rage against it and cry about it so you can get it OUT of you and get to the forgiving and healing. The pain in you is so obvious and so deep, Gilbert. You deserve better than this. You CAN do better than this. But it will start with prayer, be filled with WORK, and end in forgiveness and grace. Then, I intuit, you will be free and can actually be HAPPY -- even in spite of arthritis and neuropathy, etc.. Please think about this.

God bless, G.

Vox, I hope that I can actually find a good spiritual director around here in the Boston Archdiocese, but truthfully I doubt it. If memory serves, St. Francis De Sales in "Introduction To The Devout Life" said that finding a good spiritual director was like finding one man in a thousand. And he wrote that nearly five centuries ago. How worse is it now?

Please pray for me that I CAN find such a good man to help me work through this. And please read the info in the OCPD links I posted earlier. It will literally be a miracle if I stop obsessing and compulsively obsessing about my pains and background and anger.

And again, Vox, thank you so much. You hit the bulls-eye, so to speak.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)