Pope Francis's Apostolic Exhortation «Evangelii Gaudium»
#21
(11-26-2013, 03:48 PM)Ray M Facere Wrote: The meme of traditionalists as neopelagian continues ... or the smack down of "toxic trads" (depending on how you look at it):
What makes you think he refers to trads?
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#22
(11-26-2013, 05:15 PM)Dmorgan Wrote: The plain fact is our Holy Father, may God richly Bless Him, is a product of Vatican II and the Socialist environment of South America. It shows out in his total conviction to Vatican II, and his ideas on economics and societal concerns.

I thought his treatment of capitalism seemed right in line with that of Pius XI in Quadragesimo Anno. 
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#23
Quote:I don't see why, if greater local responsibility is the intended approach, the practice of particular synods/councils is not restored (provincial, national,etc.), rather than trying to figure out how their attributes can be applied to bishops' conferences.

Regardless of the means by which "local control" might be realized, it is hard to see how the unity of truth will be preserved -- humanly speaking -- between countries that are more traditionally minded and those like Germany, who was busy drafting a preliminary instruction on divorced Catholics receiving communion just a few months ago. If these are precisely the doctrinal issues to be worked out by local bishop conferences or local synods, will we really have one truth for Germany one for Spain one for the UK and one for the US? It is hard to be consoled by this vision of the future.

Quote:It seems to me he is saying the people who do the above are in the wrong, not that all people who care about orthodoxy and the liturgy do the above.  Since he has not named any names, I find St. Jerome's advice good:

"When anything is written against some particular vice, but without the mention of any name, if a man grows angry he accuses himself. It would have been the part of a wise man, even if he felt hurt, to dissemble his consciousness of wrong, and by the serenity of his countenance to dissipate the cloud that lay upon his heart."

Well that is a true gem. Thank you!

My own consolation comes from calling to mind the story of Our Lord on the stormy ship. Wake up, O Lord, so that you might admonish us and correct our lack of faith.
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#24
As a critical thinker this does not make sense.

1. How can I be faithful? When there is nothing to be faithful to (religious freedom as presented above)
2. If Bishops were men chosen for their zeal for the Faith rather than for their management skills or their beurocratic know how then may be you wouldn't have to centralize so much.
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#25
(11-26-2013, 05:37 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: From what I understand, this refers to the Abrahamic covenant, which was not revoked with respect to the Jews, but merely extended also to the Gentiles.
What do you mean by "merely extended also to the Gentiles"?
(11-26-2013, 05:37 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: This is the covenant of faith, which also requires a response on our part, Jew or Gentile.  But it has not been revoked--"Israel of the flesh" is not now definitively excluded.
Modern Talmudic Judaism is a different religion than Biblical Judaism, the former essentially being a development of the sect of the Pharisees.

Heb. 8:13: "Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old, is near its end."

Also:
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence Wrote:The sacrosanct Roman Church ... firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after Our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; ... All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it (the Roman Church) declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors.
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#26
"Since I am called to put into practice what I ask of others, I too must think about a conversion of the papacy. It is my duty, as the Bishop of Rome, to be open to suggestions which can help make the exercise of my ministry more faithful to the meaning which Jesus Christ wished to give it and to the present needs of evangelization. Pope John Paul II asked for help in finding “a way of exercising the primacy which, while in no way renouncing what is essential to its mission, is nonetheless open to a new situation”.[35] We have made little progress in this regard. The papacy and the central structures of the universal Church also need to hear the call to pastoral conversion. The Second Vatican Council stated that, like the ancient patriarchal Churches, episcopal conferences are in a position “to contribute in many and fruitful ways to the concrete realization of the collegial spirit”.[36] Yet this desire has not been fully realized, since a juridical status of episcopal conferences which would see them as subjects of specific attributions, including genuine doctrinal authority, has not yet been sufficiently elaborated.[37] Excessive centralization, rather than proving helpful, complicates the Church’s life and her missionary outreach."

Maybe I am missing something but the passage he is lifting from Ut Unum Sint seemed to me to be something that John Paul aimed at the Eastern Orthodox, hoping some accommodation might be reached with them. It wasn't intended for anyone else.  But the Orthodox have shown little interest in the idea. And exactly how episcopal conferences will change things if they are given new authority escapes me. We still live in an age that is difficult to evangelize, our teachings are considered outdated and antiquated but they are stlll the truth. I really am skeptical just what we can do to "reinvent" ourselves. Cardinal O'Malley's comment that the prevailing culture appears "vaccinated against the Faith" comes to mind.
And the exhortation seems to pass over in silence the tidal wave of dissent that has afflicted the Church since Vatican II. One can never have a perfect situation in the Church to evangelize but the fact that so many formerly Catholic institutions are still in the grip of dissenters is going to hamper efforts at evangelization. People see all the divisions in the Church and it is alienating for them. Without some kind of disciplinary measures (and those don't have to be thought of as Pelagian, sigh) the Church cannot speak with one voice.  And "sourpusses" like me feel alienated too. 


C.
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#27
His "toxic trad" description seems very accurate and articulate.
How words on abortion and on the reservation of the priesthood are spot on.
His references to the authority of bishops is merely a very legitimate (though scary) decentralization that would have shocked no one in the early stages of the Church.
I do sincerely hope that if, as someone suggested above, he is trying to work toward reunion with with the Orthodox, he is successful.
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#28
(11-26-2013, 08:04 PM)maldon Wrote: His "toxic trad" description seems very accurate and articulate.
How words on abortion and on the reservation of the priesthood are spot on.
His references to the authority of bishops is merely a very legitimate (though scary) decentralization that would have shocked no one in the early stages of the Church.
I do sincerely hope that if, as someone suggested above, he is trying to work toward reunion with with the Orthodox, he is successful.
Yes, considering he had experience with Eastern Rites in Argentina, he seems to understand the Orthodox well. Deo gratias he thinks the Divine Liturgy is a good thing.

He met with Putin today.
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#29
(11-26-2013, 02:06 PM)Geremia Wrote: That's the good part. The bad part, from the section on ecumenism: "Patriarch of Constantinople, His Holiness Bartholomaios I, and the Archbishop of Canterbury, His Grace Rowan Williams"
Why such honorifics for heretics, especially for the latter, who's just a layman‽
Because they are not heretics, they are leaders of their Christian denominations/churches.

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#30
The pope is merely reiterating the teachings of Jesus Christ. The fact that it seems to alarm some people is a testament to the incomplete Christianity that many Catholics subscribe to. As Archbishop Sheen put it "The laity will have to comprehend that Our Blessed Lord was not crucified in a cathedral between two candles, but in the world, on a roadway, in a town garbage heap.."

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