Obsequium religiosum: Religious submission to the authentic magisterium
#11
jonbhorton Wrote:As for now, I'll stick with what I know to be defined and all other things get shrugged off, such as this so-called "right" to Tylenol, Welfare, and illegally entering another country vs fixing one's own.

I see.

So you have stopped your ears against the Vicar of Christ, but listen to the ranting of a wild-eyed woman with a pink rifle?

Gotcha.   :w2go:
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#12
No; I just can't assent to what is not clearly understandable. Unintelligible vagueness is to what I'm referring. If Pope Francis speaks clearly, or a Bishop, and it's not in contradiction to that which is previously held, I have no problem.

But I believe my pastor brought up a good point when he said he just simply didn't know what the Pope was referring to in certain parts of the AE.

I'm just saying I can't assent to that which I don't understand and is not clearly defined. I will not engage in a Spirit of the Bishops' Spirit of Vatican 2 mentality. As it stands, most of what they "teach" is just not applicable to me anyway, so it's really a moot point.
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#13
Clare,

i do not find his teachings too vague to follow. I do not know what they are. I do not even know that he has taught anything yet.
Look: he says he wants to make big changes in the Church, related to how we understand the papacy, women, economics, and the Church itself. So far, all he has done is to announce that he has a big plan.

Second, he begins with 'structural' changes. Get Burke, Bagnasco, Piacenza out of the way, etc. Make a new College for the College, etc. So far, NONE of this applies to me or to the average person.

Third, at some point, he is going to start teaching about women in the Church (I am a man), and about divorce and remarried people (not my case either), and about the rich (not me) and about the poor (also not me).

So I am left with . . . what? Basically, he wants me to continue doing what I am doing, my prayer life, my sacramental life, my parental life, my work life, etc. He is not speaking to me, for whatever reason. Benedict did not speak to me either, and I did not read his books either. Benedict spoke to liturgists, theologians, diplomats. I just don't think we are supposed to be taught by a pope or by a bishop. They don't show up in my parish, ever. And there can be no obligation to know the specific teachings of any pope. No, my obsequium religiosum comes mediated through the different legitimate pastors of the Church with grace of state to teach me. So for me, that is my parish priest, insofar as he is in communion with his bishop to the extent that the later is in communion with the pope to the extent that the latter is A) teaching something applicable to my life and B) not in contradiction with Sacred Tradition.

Otherwise, it would be like saying that my 8 year old daughter has an obligation to know and follow the teachings of the pope, like TODAY. Nope. She has to be taught by me, who am taught by my priest, etc.

Sometimes he will say things that are interesting, for better or for worse. Sometimes he will say things I might find practically useful. Sometimes, I may draw inspiration from some angle of his, such as his general preference for the works of mercy. But mostly I have to deal with the nitty gritty of the day, with patience and generosity and kindness and prayer.

However, this is not the case for priests, religious, bishops, etc. For them, this is a much bigger deal. They have an obligation to know what he teaches if and when he begins to teach. And they must live the obsequium in matters they may find difficulty accepting initially, to the extent that such matters are taught definitively by the pope.
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#14
Maldon, have you read Evangelii Gaudium?  All of it?

I'm considering a thread devoted to specific teachings of that document, posted one at a time.  I will focus on teachings applicable to the lay faithful.

Here's an important teaching:
Quote:All of us are asked to obey his call to go forth from our own comfort zone in order to reach all the “peripheries” in need of the light of the Gospel.

Evangelii Gaudium, Paragraph 20.

Is that hard to understand?  Is that not a "teaching"?
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#15
(12-16-2013, 07:04 AM)Clare Brigid Wrote:
(12-16-2013, 12:24 AM)maldon Wrote: So I still say that obsequium only works when there is clarity of teaching. And right now, we have the opposite. So obsequium cannot be imposed because its object cannot be found.

What puzzles me is that neo-cons and trads find it specific enough to criticize, but too vague to follow.

The Holy Father says one thing one day and the opposite thing the next. That is what is truly puzzling. I get the unsettling feeling that you are subtly trying to imply "neo-cons and trads" [sic] are disobedient. This is not the only post where you have questioned obedience in discussion.

Regarding the crux of this post, I think Cardinal Burke makes it quite clear in the interview that the Apostolic Exhortation was at least clear enough to indicate that it was not intended as an act of the authentic magisterium. Cardinal Burke is a brilliant man and the quite probably the best canon lawyer in the world, so I tend to believe him.

MDA
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#16
(12-16-2013, 11:19 AM)Clare Brigid Wrote: Maldon, have you read Evangelii Gaudium?  All of it?

I'm considering a thread devoted to specific teachings of that document, posted one at a time.  I will focus on teachings applicable to the lay faithful.

Here's an important teaching:
Quote:All of us are asked to obey his call to go forth from our own comfort zone in order to reach all the “peripheries” in need of the light of the Gospel.

Evangelii Gaudium, Paragraph 20.

Is that hard to understand?  Is that not a "teaching"?

Hard to understand? No, certainly not. A teaching? Not really. "All of us are asked" gives it away as an exhortation, which, for the record is defined as "an address or communication emphatically urging someone to do something". Not commanding or ordering that something be done.

MDA
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#17
"Obey his call."  Obey.  His. Call.
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#18
Clare, you are proving my point.

I will take care of the "peripheries". Now, what/who are the "peripheries"?

I will tell you who: my 8 year old daughter, and my 13 year-old son. The children in my parish. My wife and fellow parishioners who live on the fringes of mainstream Catholic life. The babies about to be aborted. The good Christians confused in this world. You want peripheries? Just look straight ahead at Trads, and you have all the peripheries you need. So I accept the pope's exhortation. I will take care of my family, my fellow parishioners, and of the poor. And I was doing exactly that before his exhortation. It added zero to my life. If he wants to add to my life, he is going to have to write another exhortation addressing the issue of how to live as Catholics in a hostile, secular world, how to get the kids through school with their souls alive after the brutal attempts to kill their souls by the State, how to continue persevering as Catholics when our bishops do not believe in Jesus Christ. Believe me, Clare, when he writes this one, I will learn the contents by heart.
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#19
(12-16-2013, 10:17 PM)maldon Wrote: Clare, you are proving my point.

I will take care of the "peripheries". Now, what/who are the "peripheries"?

"But he, to prove himself blameless, asked, And who is my neighbor?"  Luke 10:29.

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#20
Ah, Clare, but I answered. Do you not like those I have identified as "peripheries"? Do they not deserve the title of "my neighbor"?

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