Obsequium religiosum: Religious submission to the authentic magisterium
#21
(12-17-2013, 09:49 AM)maldon Wrote: Ah, Clare, but I answered. Do you not like those I have identified as "peripheries"? Do they not deserve the title of "my neighbor"?

I like Our Lord's answer.  :)
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#22
As do I. That is why I think I like another of Our Lord's instructions, to "do what they say, but not as they do".

I find that I am very inspired by what the pope says, and then utterly dismayed by what he does. I think I will listen to the Lord, be inspired by the pope's words, and try not to imitate his governing actions. I like that he gives his almoner a lot of work. I dislike the injustice in how he treats his children. In his preaching, he seems to favor justice and fairness and charity. So I will try to follow his preached instructions, and ignore his failures as a governor.
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#23
(12-16-2013, 10:17 PM)maldon Wrote: Clare, you are proving my point.

I will take care of the "peripheries". Now, what/who are the "peripheries"?

I will tell you who: my 8 year old daughter, and my 13 year-old son. The children in my parish. My wife and fellow parishioners who live on the fringes of mainstream Catholic life. The babies about to be aborted. The good Christians confused in this world. You want peripheries? Just look straight ahead at Trads, and you have all the peripheries you need. So I accept the pope's exhortation. I will take care of my family, my fellow parishioners, and of the poor. And I was doing exactly that before his exhortation. It added zero to my life. If he wants to add to my life, he is going to have to write another exhortation addressing the issue of how to live as Catholics in a hostile, secular world, how to get the kids through school with their souls alive after the brutal attempts to kill their souls by the State, how to continue persevering as Catholics when our bishops do not believe in Jesus Christ. Believe me, Clare, when he writes this one, I will learn the contents by heart.

I think this is what we ought to read/re-discover this -- it addresses many of your points and is still relevant today, written over a century ago : 

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xi...um_en.html

I too find much of the post VII "teachings" vague and wishy-washy, devoid of substance or so overloaded with theological jargon that the average layman just shrugs and goes on with his life.

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#24
Everything I need to know of the current situation has been instructed and observed upon by these devout Catholics:
Pope St. pius X: Pascendi Domenici Gregis
Pope Pius XI: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM
Pope Pius V: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius05/p5quopri.htm
Pope Pius XII: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MYSTI.HTM

Our Lady of Good Success: "Our Lady said, "...the secular Clergy will leave much to be desired because priests will become careless in their sacred duties. Lacking the divine compass, they will stray from the road traced by God for the priestly ministry, and they will become attached to wealth and riches, which they will unduly strive to obtain. How the Church will suffer during this dark night! Lacking a Prelate and Father to guide them with paternal love, gentleness, strength, wisdom and prudence, many priests will lose their spirit, placing their souls in great danger. This will mark the arrival of My hour."

"Therefore, clamor insistently without tiring and weep with bitter tears in the privacy of your heart, imploring our Celestial Father that, for love of the Eucharistic Heart of my Most Holy Son and His Precious Blood shed with such generosity and the profound bitterness and sufferings of His cruel Passion and Death, He might take pity on His ministers and bring to an end those Ominous times, sending to this Church the Prelate who will restore the spirit of its priests."

St. Vincent de Lerins: ""But what if some novel contagions try to infect the whole Church, and not merely a tiny part of it? Then he will take care to cleave to antiquity, which cannot now be led astray by any deceit of novelty."

St. Paul, 2nd Letter to the Thessalonians:
"[14] Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
[15] Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace,
[16] Exhort your hearts, and confirm you in every good work and word." from http://www.drbo.org/index.htm

Our Lord Jesus Christ, The Gospel of St. Matthew; ch. 7
"[16] By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
[17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit.
[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire.
[20] Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them." from http://www.drbo.org/index.htm

There has been little since 1965 which resembles any of this in the Church. So I choose to Stand Fast.
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#25
Clare,

By the way, I am reading the exhortation, in small bites, and I do like what I am reading. I think your thread is still a very valid one, but I think the problem is very complex. For instance:

1. I still think the question of whether or not the document constitutes the pope's "teaching" is an open one. I suspect that when he makes affirmations concerning faith and morals, we can consider it his teaching.

2. The question of obedience is still problematic, in the sense that it differs, I think, depending on our state in life. "Obsequium" of this document should be different depending on whether a person is a bishop, priest, religious, or part of the lay faithful. Nothing stops me from emphasizing evangelization or care for the poor in my talks with my children; but this is not, I think, what obsequium was meant for. I think it was meant to direct the assent and actions of the clergy in theological matters in which they might differ from papal teaching.

3. For me personally, I find it difficult to reconcile the Pope's words with his decisions in the government of the Church. But this difficulty of mine is a different question from "obsequium." I may utterly dislike the pope's decisions, yet like his words/teachings. Does this mean that I think the Pope teaches one thing and does the opposite? I am tempted to think so every day. However, this is not logical nor legitimate, I admit. Governmental decisions are not teachings, so I am not obliged to like or agree with a single decision of his, though I am obliged to obey him of his decisions require my obedience, and I am obliged to give his teachings the benefit of the doubt. So I think I have to make a clearer distinction in my life between Church politics and papal teaching. I think that what seems to be his teachings is quite good, but I think he is clueless as a governor. I will have to refrain, therefore, from reading about his decisions as a governor, and stick to his teachings. Does this make sense?
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#26
(12-18-2013, 10:52 AM)maldon Wrote: Does this make sense?

Yes, it makes eminent sense.  I really like what you've written.
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