What If?
#1
I would like to pose the question to the posters here: What if the TLM was abrogated? Prior to this pontificate, I didn't think this was possible. But after hearing the news of the persecution of the FFI, I am not so sure at this point. Every time I log onto a Traditional Catholic site, I ask myself: "Will I read news that another shoe has dropped"? As for myself, I would probably attend the local SSPX chapel. I would also feel angry and hurt. I pray everyday that this doesn't happen, but I feel insecure as a Traditionalist under this pope.
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#2
Bl. Pope John Paul referred to Apoc. 12 in his homily at Fatima;

{12:3} Et visum est aliud signum in cælo: et ecce draco magnus rufus habens capita septem, et cornua decem: et in capitibus eius diademata septem,
{12:3} And another sign was seen in heaven. And behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.

{12:4} et cauda eius trahebat tertiam partem stellarum cæli, et misit eas in terram, et draco stetit ante mulierem, quæ erat paritura: ut cum peperisset, filium eius devoraret.
{12:4} And his tail drew down a third part of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman, who was about to give birth, so that, when she had brought forth, he might devour her son.

I  believe this refers to the 1/3 of the priests being thrown out of the Church, and the formation of another religion.

tim
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#3
But who's who in the OP example Tim?
I can't see 1/3 of the priests leaving if the TLM were abrogated. Though I can see a 1/3 leaving if it became obligatory!

Technically, the original poster seems to suggest that he would leave the Church. But that would put him in the camp of the "bad" 1/3.

So, not sure I follow.

I think the 1/3 is symbolic, and I think 1/3 have already left the Church, even more than 1/3, though many perhaps are still exercising some ministry. I think it already took place, basically.

I doubt very much this pope will abrogate the TLM. Though he could if he wanted. I mean, perhaps the question is an odd one. What we are calling TLM has been reformed and changed over the centuries. He could reform it some more. Nothing wrong there. The problem would be if he were to outright abrogate it on grounds that it belonged to a "different" Church. This would be a problem for a lot of cardinals not to mention trads. And with Benedict alive, no chance. Benedict dead, still, practically no chance. Slim, but practically nil. You have to remember that many bishops and priests are doing zero out there, so he needs cardinals, bishops and priests to help him. He can't afford to lose them, so he will probably just stay at the level of making shocking Obama-esque pronouncements about trendy issues while writing fairly good documents and not governing at all.
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#4
(12-29-2013, 04:28 PM)maldon Wrote: I doubt very much this pope will abrogate the TLM. Though he could if he wanted. I mean, perhaps the question is an odd one. What we are calling TLM has been reformed and changed over the centuries. He could reform it some more. Nothing wrong there. The problem would be if he were to outright abrogate it on grounds that it belonged to a "different" Church. This would be a problem for a lot of cardinals not to mention trads. And with Benedict alive, no chance. Benedict dead, still, practically no chance. Slim, but practically nil. You have to remember that many bishops and priests are doing zero out there, so he needs cardinals, bishops and priests to help him. He can't afford to lose them, so he will probably just stay at the level of making shocking Obama-esque pronouncements about trendy issues while writing fairly good documents and not governing at all.

I also doubt if the Pope will abrogate the TLM. I just threw that out there just to see how the posters think they would react to that hypothetical event. On one hand, I can see some Traditionalists tolerating the NO because they want to stay with Saint Peter. OTOH, I can see some Traditionalist leaving because they may feel the Church has lost her direction, and God may be working through other organizations such as the SSPX to preserve the remnant, while the mainstream Church withers on the vine.

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#5
I don't think the TLM figures into it. That is a side issue.
tim
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#6
That wont happen.  Our Frank's a smart man.  Outright suppression will cause a backlash.  Much better to tolerate our right on paper.  We will continue to have our legal rights to the traditional Mass but we are massively out of favour with this Pontificate.  But I think this situation will benefit the traditionalists movement in the long run.

We can no longer pin our hopes on anything coming from Rome.  It's not going to work that way.  Instead of hoping that Rome will put pressure on the parish priests and bishops of the diocese, we need to reverse this.  We need the parish priests and the bishops to put pressure on Rome.

Our Pope's a fan of subsidiarity is he?  Wants the local bishops to take more action does he?  Fine then.  We'll fight this battle in individual parishes, we'll fight this battle in individual diocese.  We go back to the grassroots.  We nurture the soil and Rome will eventually seed the ground.

Pray, pray and pray some more.  Fast and do penance and live holy lives.  Work on your pastors, work on your bishops.  Forget what's happening next door, we do this in our own communities from now on.

And keep praying for the FFI, the ICRSS, the FSSP, the IGS.  Pray, pray, and never miss an hour.  Because these brave men and women are in the firing line and they're there for us.
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#7
(12-29-2013, 10:33 PM)Prie dieu Wrote: That wont happen.  Our Frank's a smart man.  Outright suppression will cause a backlash.  Much better to tolerate our right on paper.  We will continue to have our legal rights to the traditional Mass but we are massively out of favour with this Pontificate.  But I think this situation will benefit the traditionalists movement in the long run.

We can no longer pin our hopes on anything coming from Rome.  It's not going to work that way.  Instead of hoping that Rome will put pressure on the parish priests and bishops of the diocese, we need to reverse this.  We need the parish priests and the bishops to put pressure on Rome.

Our Pope's a fan of subsidiarity is he?  Wants the local bishops to take more action does he?  Fine then.  We'll fight this battle in individual parishes, we'll fight this battle in individual diocese.  We go back to the grassroots.  We nurture the soil and Rome will eventually seed the ground.

Pray, pray and pray some more.  Fast and do penance and live holy lives.  Work on your pastors, work on your bishops.  Forget what's happening next door, we do this in our own communities from now on.

And keep praying for the FFI, the ICRSS, the FSSP, the IGS.  Pray, pray, and never miss an hour.  Because these brave men and women are in the firing line and they're there for us.


Excellent post. Thanks. What does IGS stand for? Where are they? Thanks.
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#8
(12-29-2013, 10:33 PM)Prie dieu Wrote: That wont happen.  Our Frank's a smart man.  Outright suppression will cause a backlash.  Much better to tolerate our right on paper.  We will continue to have our legal rights to the traditional Mass but we are massively out of favour with this Pontificate.  But I think this situation will benefit the traditionalists movement in the long run.

We can no longer pin our hopes on anything coming from Rome.  It's not going to work that way.  Instead of hoping that Rome will put pressure on the parish priests and bishops of the diocese, we need to reverse this.  We need the parish priests and the bishops to put pressure on Rome.

Our Pope's a fan of subsidiarity is he?  Wants the local bishops to take more action does he?  Fine then.  We'll fight this battle in individual parishes, we'll fight this battle in individual diocese.  We go back to the grassroots.  We nurture the soil and Rome will eventually seed the ground.

Pray, pray and pray some more.  Fast and do penance and live holy lives.  Work on your pastors, work on your bishops.  Forget what's happening next door, we do this in our own communities from now on.

And keep praying for the FFI, the ICRSS, the FSSP, the IGS.  Pray, pray, and never miss an hour.  Because these brave men and women are in the firing line and they're there for us.

I think your post is right on the money. In addition, we as Traditionalists should make ourselves indispensable to the parishes and dioceses. We should contribute our time and treasure more so than typical Catholics.  5 - 10 % of our gross income would be great. The collection plates shouldn't resemble the contents of parking meters. Financial support should also be given to the groups you have mentioned. We should become active in everyday parish life and and hold important positions such as the treasurer, maintenance supervisor, music  director, etc. We should also explain tradition to other Catholics and non-Catholics without being confrontational.  Perhaps most important of all, we should continue to have large families and teach them the importance of tradition. 
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#9
(12-29-2013, 11:13 PM)DeoGratias72 Wrote: Excellent post. Thanks. What does IGS stand for? Where are they? Thanks.

The Institute of the Good Shepherd.  That was my own acronym for them, they may have their own.  They're not active in the Anglosphere, they originated in France and have chapels in a few other countries.  Oh and we can't forget the Fraternity of Saint Vincent Ferrer, a French community with a Dominican spirituality!  And of course the Benedictines of le Barroux.

There are many good men and women out there fighting for us!

(12-29-2013, 11:21 PM)Geographer Wrote: I think your post is right on the money. In addition, we as Traditionalists should make ourselves indispensable to the parishes and dioceses. We should contribute our time and treasure more so than typical Catholics.  5 - 10 % of our gross income would be great. The collection plates shouldn't resemble the contents of parking meters. Financial support should also be given to the groups you have mentioned. We should become active in everyday parish life and and hold important positions such as the treasurer, maintenance supervisor, music  director, etc. Perhaps most important of all, we should continue to have large families and teach them the importance of tradition. 

Absolutely.  This is fundamental to the survival of tradition and the restoration of our Catholic culture and identity.  Financial support is essential in my view.  If there's one thing modern Churchmen understand, it's money.  Participating in our local parishes, serving on committees and boards, will all help us make great strides.

We need to wrestle the liturgy back from the modernists.  We need to restore beauty.  Beauty will convert the world.

Truth, beauty and goodness.  This should be the motto of the traditional Catholic.
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#10
The best thing to do is to find a reverent place to receive the sacraments and ask for the grace to deepen your life of prayer in every aspect of your life. Read lives of saints, pray the psalms, read scripture; live as best you can a life of faith, filled with hope in God's mercy and a desire for your eternal homeland and try to be charitable and Christlike to your neighbor. Flee from following ecclesiastical politics or worrying too much about the bishops or the Popes. Honestly ask yourself whether what the Pope or a cardinal or some bishop said has anything whatsoever to do with your spiritual and if the answer is no than don't worry about it. If anything pray for them.
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