Pope Francis: Regain a Sense of the Sacred
#31
(02-10-2014, 06:36 PM)Heorot Wrote: I believe the Eastern Rites have always celebrated in languages vernacular, or close to vernacular. Would we say that they are not so reverent in their glorious rites? I know we're Roman-rite Catholics, but it seems somewhat strange to me to focus entirely on the Latin rite as if it's the be-all, end-all.

With regards to change vs. tradition (i.e. banality vs. reverence), Gregory the Great removed the Great Litany from the Mass and replaced it with the 9-fold Kyrie. We don't consider him an irreverent liberal, even though that was a gigantic change to make.

Anyway, good thoughts. :)
In my experience at a Byzantine DL it was a miserable hodge podge and very irrvevrantly dressed laity and non-Catholic sermons.
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#32
(02-11-2014, 02:56 PM)Heorot Wrote: Wow, it's Babel all over again. Never mind vernacular, then. Latin is the way to go.
Interesting to note that centuries ago the Church changed the liturgy to Latin so the Mass would be in the vernacular of the people, as Latin was the "English" of its day, meaning the universal  language which most people in the Western world understood.  But if one went back to the ancient traditional language of the Church it would actually be Greek. What's more, the First Mass was in Aramaic. So go figure.
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#33
(02-11-2014, 03:20 PM)Gabriel Serafin Wrote:
(02-11-2014, 02:56 PM)Heorot Wrote: Wow, it's Babel all over again. Never mind vernacular, then. Latin is the way to go.
Interesting to note that centuries ago the Church changed the liturgy to Latin so the Mass would be in the vernacular of the people, as Latin was the "English" of its day, meaning the universal  language which most people in the Western world understood.  But if one went back to the ancient traditional language of the Church it would actually be Greek. What's more, the First Mass was in Aramaic. So go figure.
At Present Latin is the Universal language of the Church.

I can and have traveled to many world countries and the Mass is always the same no matter were I go, I can always understand it.

Now that is truly uniting the Universal Church.

That they all may be one.
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#34
(02-10-2014, 10:30 PM)Gabriel Serafin Wrote:
(02-10-2014, 10:16 PM)JuniorCouncilor Wrote: Three words:

Beach ball -- altar.

Surely somebody HAD to say it.
After his arrival at Ciampino airport, the Holy Father chose to stop at the Basilica of Saint Mary Major to offer a brief prayer to the Blessed Virgin for World Youth Day.  Seeing the Pope as he entered the Basilica, a group of young people approached him and offered him a T-shirt and a ball. Pope Francis later offered the gifts to the Madonna.

Not bad.  Not great, but not bad.

Can you do anything with the instance where, as Cardinal Archbishop of Buenos Aires, he had the tango danced in the sanctuary as a thanksgiving?
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#35
The experiments of Vatican II: vernacular, watering down the Mass, making Luv banners, Polka, Show Tunes, Folk Music, Rock Music, and on and on have been a colossal failure It's time to admit the failures and return to basics.

If you've played American Football and had a losing season, the next year it's back to basics. You go over down blocking, dives are even numbered backs through even numbered holes like dive 24 not 25. You build up to zone blocking and becoming tricky, because the last season proved you are incapable of success. That's where we are.

tim
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#36
(02-11-2014, 04:04 PM)JuniorCouncilor Wrote: Can you do anything with the instance where, as Cardinal Archbishop of Buenos Aires, he had the tango danced in the sanctuary as a thanksgiving?
That was clearly not the place for dancing a tango. Surely they could have found a different place to offer the people's thanksgiving; but it must be noted that it was not part of the liturgy, but rather an offering to the Blessed Virgin Mary during the festivals celebrating the church of St. Mary of the Angels in Buenos Aires. Traditionalist websites are all to eager to label it Bergoglio's "Tango Mass", but that simply was not the case. The Virgin Mary has a special cult in Latin America---as seen in Mexico on the Feast of  Our Lady of Guadalupe, when thousands of Mexicans crowd the Basilica every December 12th at midnight to sing the traditional Mexican birthday song Las Mañanitas[ to Our Lady of Guadalupe. Such celebrations are done with the intent of honoring the Blessed Mother, and are not part of the liturgy..
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#37
Speculation against the Pope, Pope Emeritus or any Cardinal(s) was unwarranted on my part, I apologize for any sins of Gossip, Detraction, Calumny, and/or Slander caused by this post, as well as any other sins committed, and any sins others fell or will fall into by reading it as a result.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be,
world without end. Amen.
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#38
(02-11-2014, 06:45 PM)Drover Wrote: A Tango is not an offering, or at the very least, an inadequate one.
The fact that it was outside the Mass, doesn't do away with the problem that it was done IN the Sanctuary, not the parish hall or outside.
Sure, I can agree with this.
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#39
(02-11-2014, 01:38 PM)AxxeArp Wrote: So, because 0.01% of the people may travel to another place and not understand the Liturgy as it is spoke, the other 99.99% of the people shouldn’t understand the language either ??? 

The liturgy is totally understandable with the use of a Missal. That a person can go from one country to the next and attend the same Mass, even if no one actually does the traveling, is a sign of unity.


(02-11-2014, 01:38 PM)AxxeArp Wrote: Slavonic was invented by Cyril and Methodius specifically to convert the Slavic peoples and so they understood the liturgy.  It worked so well they converted almost the entire Slavic peoples without an issue.  They did so because the Koine Greek was not effective.  So, in this day in age, how exactly is Latin going to convert the masses?

Evangelizing is done in the vernacular as always. Latin is for the liturgy, and it helps keep people converted because of its sense of Mystery and its ancientness.

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#40
(02-11-2014, 02:02 PM)Heorot Wrote: Sorry if I came across as contrary... I pray the Latin hymns proper to each hour of the Liturgy of the Hours, and find that they always have clearer doctrine and greater poetic beauty than pretty much every vernacular hymn.

One thing that seems peculiar to me is the emphasis on Latin as unifying and somehow inherently sacred. Was there a "Latin Mass" in Rome before AD 180? If the Titulus above our Lord's holy cross consecrated three languages as holy, why are Greek and Hebrew only used once or twice, each, in the Mass? By this logic, it ought always to 1/3 each.

As for unity: if the Latin Mass kept us in such good order as opposed to the nationalist Eastern Churches, why did the spirit of Vatican II even take hold in the West? I mean, if Latin is so gloriously, infallibly sanctioned by Heaven forever, it has to have taken a pretty tremendous evil to have debased what is basically the highest form of worship in the Cosmos. If evil is that powerful, truly Dualism and Manichaeism have a chance, do they not? I don't believe that ... I'm just saying... :)

I don't think anyone thinks that Latin is "inherently" sacred. But it's become that for the Church and there are good reasons for keeping the liturgy in Latin (the aforementioned unity, sense of Mystery, obviating all the problems of political correctness and changing languages, etc.). What's so "sacred" about Sanskrit, Hebrew, and Arabic? Nothing inheherently, but they're the sacred languages of major religions. I don't think Christians are any less bright than Hindus, Jews, or Muslims that we can't worship in Latin.

IMO, the "spirit of Vatican II" took over the West because the Modernists Pope Pius X warned us about and the media wanted it to, and because what it leads to appeals to man's baser instincts in many ways (free love, for ex.).

 
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