Dialogue Mass: What's the point?
#11
(02-14-2014, 04:31 PM)PolishTrad Wrote:
"FaithandLove" Wrote:holding someone's hand during the Our Father
Do people actually do that? Gosh, I'd die there.

I was raised in liberal novus ordo parishes. Everyone did it. Our family all held hands. If I went to mass by myself, strangers would just reach over and take my hand, lifting it up in the air for the "... kingdom and glory..." part.
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#12
(02-14-2014, 05:20 PM)FaithandLove Wrote:
(02-14-2014, 04:31 PM)PolishTrad Wrote:
"FaithandLove" Wrote:holding someone's hand during the Our Father
Do people actually do that? Gosh, I'd die there.

I was raised in liberal novus ordo parishes. Everyone did it. Our family all held hands. If I went to mass by myself, strangers would just reach over and take my hand, lifting it up in the air for the "... kingdom and glory..." part.
Oh man.
[Image: care-bears-love-wallpapers.jpg]
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#13
(02-14-2014, 05:01 PM)Tim Wrote: I think this goes all ways, those that are reflective and silent, those that want to participate where it's allowed, and those that would like to sing the parts of the ordinary.Catholics should be allowed. We are not congregationalists, and for those that are Classical Music aficionados there is High Mass.  What irks me a bit is when Low Mass is required to be Silent. There is no good reason, and I've heard priests after Mass, as they come down the Altar steps tell visitors, at St. X, we do not respond, nor recite the Pater Noster with the Priest. I can understand a warning in the little Missals in the pews to the extent responses should be soft, but banning them ?? I also remember the Sisters teaching us the rosary was the Only devotion which could be prayed at Mass, thereby pooh poohing those little books of devotion popular back then. I don't know from the New Mass except on EWTN. I discovered that on my way back. It was like lightening in a bottle. There are parts which are chanted in Latin, and it woke me up. It wasn't long I remembered the Oratre Fratres, the Suscipiat, and the Pater Noster. In my over enthusiasm I would sing the priest's parts at home in my privacy until I remembered that was a no no. I know I helped more than one priest there through the Libera nos by telepathy.

tim

Tim, I agree with you about this idea that the mass is supposed to be quiet.  I don't get it.  I think that at a low mass, there should at least be plainchant by the laity, similiar to how us Byzantines intone most of the Liturgy.  I knew an old priest, Fr Shom, may he rest in peace, who was in charge of teaching chant at Mount Saint Mary's forever.  He always always always said the Liturgy is meant to be sung by the priest and the laity.  The priest, his parts, and the laity their parts.  I remember he would "fill in" for priests in the area sometimes and he would always have the "choir (i.e. folk monsters  :LOL:) take the sunday off and he would spend 5 minutes before mass making sure everyone could basically plainchant various parts of the mass. 
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#14
Yep, in the day the priest plainchanted the Low Masses. That's where I learned. Don't think I was a little tiny saint, but Mass before school teaches a bunch. For me it was the confluence of three things; I was interested, I knew how to pronounce Italian, and I felt the Latin was like speaking God's language.

tim
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#15
The point is the sanctification of the faithful by praying the Mass, especially in circumstances where Sung Masses cannot be celebrated. St. Pius X approved of it for that reason. I much more prefer the Sung "Dialogue" Mass of the Liturgical Movement though as I lean more Eastern in my opinion of the Low Mass.
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#16
Silent low mass is what really brought me and my husband to tradition, and that is really saying something because my husband has been an atheist for ten years and is now interested in Catholicism. We had been going to the high mass, a two hour trip, here and there. Then when he was deployed I was visiting family and they were close to the low mass and the first time I went that sealed the deal for me. As soon as we could after his homecoming I brought him to low mass with me and his reaction was identical. He just said "Why cant every mass be like THAT?!" And thats how one atheist became fascinated with liturgy... Now that my sensibilities have adjusted to traditional liturgy I can appreciate high mass, too.

I have noticed the eastern aversion to the idea of a silent mass. A Byzantine rite friend of mine was interested in seeing a TLM and I was trying to remember which Sundays were high and low and when I explained to him that some of the masses were silent he made an averse face and asked me to please find out when the high masses were because he did not want to go to a silent mass.

I, however, would be terribly sad if there were no more silent low masses.
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#17
I think this goes to show that just because we have the traditional liturgy, doesn't mean that we have the traditional mindset.  We have been blessed, in my area, to have a diocesan priest say the traditional Mass three times a week.  Some of those who assist at these Masses are friendly to Tradition, and some come just because they come to everything at the church...and so there are people fumbling through prayer books, incessantly trying to "keep up" with father, have conversations before and after Mass, dress inappropriately, the same things you would see at a modern Mass.  There's even a lay woman who rushes the sanctuary as soon as Mass is over to blow out the candles.  Yes, it's wonderful that there is the traditional liturgy, but that doesn't mean that there is the traditional understanding or catechises.  And so, I think that those who obsess at dialogue Masses about staying "on top of things" and always saying their part, speaking loudly, etc., may not understand that this is not necessary; it's possibly just a carry over from the customs and practices of the new Mass.  In the past, I never understood why SSPX priests discouraged parishioners from assisting at diocesan approved traditional Masses, but this kind of "cross contamination" that occurs when the priest and the faithful are formed around the new liturgy is an understandable reason. 
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#18
is this a low mass or a high mass?

Most diocesan priests offering TLM's never had great seminary formation to start out with.  It has to be hell getting through modern seminaries.  I would give them a break.
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#19
If by Tradition you mean prior to Vatican II, people's participation was chaotic even then. Lots of devout had Missals and flipped pages trying to stay with the Priest, and I was one. As a grade schooler I'd follow the priest and even softly imitate him chanting the Gospel.That's where I got my basic training for Latin. In the very front pews were older women say the age of Lisa and Vox in black dresses in mourning, many husbands, sons, and brothers had died overseas, all saying their rosaries. I'm told this aggravated the priests hearing the clicking of the beads and the droning of Hail Marys during Mass. The Irish were silent, and loved Low Mass because it was short.
In those days it was a rag tag group of real diversity. You had the working poor mixed in with the middle class and Doctors, Lawyers, and Pols sprinkled in for seasoning. Oh and I almost forgot the folks watching the confessional to get in there before communion. On weekdays confessions were heard on and off during all 8 masses.

tim
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#20
(02-15-2014, 08:56 AM)Tim Wrote: If by Tradition you mean prior to Vatican II, people's participation was chaotic even then. Lots of devout had Missals and flipped pages trying to stay with the Priest, and I was one. As a grade schooler I'd follow the priest and even softly imitate him chanting the Gospel.That's where I got my basic training for Latin. In the very front pews were older women say the age of Lisa and Vox in black dresses in mourning, many husbands, sons, and brothers had died overseas, all saying their rosaries. I'm told this aggravated the priests hearing the clicking of the beads and the droning of Hail Marys during Mass. The Irish were silent, and loved Low Mass because it was short.
In those days it was a rag tag group of real diversity. You had the working poor mixed in with the middle class and Doctors, Lawyers, and Pols sprinkled in for seasoning. Oh and I almost forgot the folks watching the confessional to get in there before communion. On weekdays confessions were heard on and off during all 8 masses.

tim

I think it is good to follow along and know the responses during Mass.  I became Catholic at a Novus Ordo parish so the first experience of the Mass I learned was Novus Ordo so I am used to the idea of responding to the priest.  I didn't think that the idea of chanting "et cum spiritu tho" or the other responses to the priest was not a traditional thing.  Praying the Rosary during Mass can be a beautiful devotion but I think there's a difference between doing it because you want to, and doing it because you've never been taught how the Mass works and you don't understand the words the priest is saying.  I am of the opinion that words matter and part of what attracted me to the Traditional Mass was how different the wording of the liturgy is compared to the Novus Ordo... you can hear so much more reverence and worship in the priest's tone.  While I think there is more to "full conscious and active participation" of the faithful than merely saying the responses I think understanding what the words mean and the structure of the Mass is something a layperson should be able to navigate.

From what I've read about pre vatican II liturgies, people were ignorant of the Chant for Mass.  Most only knew the Missa de Angelis and it seems like this is still common.  The parish I used to go to only used this Mass setting and never any of the other seasonal ones.  The music director at my parish is so sick of it he has banned it from the liturgy and only uses the other Gregorian settings.  I don't think the 70's hippie liturgies were what Vatican II intended but I think the idea that your average person should have a deeper participation in the liturgy is a good thing, especially given the increase in access to education.  Your average American high school student learns trigonometry, foreign languages and Shakespeare, you can at least expect an understanding of the Latin Mass out of most people.
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