Dialogue Mass: What's the point?
#21
You're right Chestertonian. Chant had fallen out of use, but it was starting to come back, and Missa de Angelis was the first step. I believe it was Pope Pius XII which directed it's return. We had a Music Director at the Parish, and the Sisters quickly made him teach Music to us. Wily Women yes they were. I believe it was Boy's Town which kicked it off in the US. Vatican II put an end to that.

tim
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#22
(02-14-2014, 11:53 PM)2HearsServant Wrote: I think this goes to show that just because we have the traditional liturgy, doesn't mean that we have the traditional mindset.  We have been blessed, in my area, to have a diocesan priest say the traditional Mass three times a week.  Some of those who assist at these Masses are friendly to Tradition, and some come just because they come to everything at the church...and so there are people fumbling through prayer books, incessantly trying to "keep up" with father, have conversations before and after Mass, dress inappropriately, the same things you would see at a modern Mass.  There's even a lay woman who rushes the sanctuary as soon as Mass is over to blow out the candles.  Yes, it's wonderful that there is the traditional liturgy, but that doesn't mean that there is the traditional understanding or catechises.  And so, I think that those who obsess at dialogue Masses about staying "on top of things" and always saying their part, speaking loudly, etc., may not understand that this is not necessary; it's possibly just a carry over from the customs and practices of the new Mass.  In the past, I never understood why SSPX priests discouraged parishioners from assisting at diocesan approved traditional Masses, but this kind of "cross contamination" that occurs when the priest and the faithful are formed around the new liturgy is an understandable reason. 

It is an understandable reason. I think it really explains the lack of improvement or interest where TLM is offered. As I said before it helped me understand why some who had supposedly grown up with tradition dont get tradition. When I went to one friends old parish all other sacraments like confession were  the new rite and of course the sermons...
However we have seen diocesan TLMs doing very well and one can see the priest has deep traditional convictions.

What can be done in the diocese where it is felt that tradition was thrown a bone because technically they have an approved TLM location but besides a sort of facade of having 1962 missals the attitudes of both priest and laity and everything else are according to the new mass?
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#23
I understand the pre-Vatican II dialogue Mass (There were three levels, based on levels of participation, if memory serves) as a step toward what we have today, remember, this modernist movement began way before 1962.

This sounds like a modern priest trying to say a TLM like a NO Mass, which understandably seems out of place
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#24
The three are Dialogata, Recitata, and Cantata. In the St. Andrew Missal there is a bit on these before the Mass ordinary. It was written by
Dom Gaspar Lefebvre O S B.

tim
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#25
I've been attending traditional masses for 15 years in two different dioceses and I've never seen or attended a dialogue mass. My experience has been High masses on Sundays and low masses on the weekdays. If the choir is on vacation or not available for some reason then the Sunday mass switches to being low. I've been to low masses that are completely silent and ones where hymns are sung at the beginning and end of the mass.  I guess some of it depends on the priest and what he feels like doing?

I have a good friend who was a pre - Vatican 2 catholic and he said most of the masses were low in those days and they only had high and sung masses on special occasions,  important feast days and Easter.  At  least that was the practice at his parish.
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#26
In my Parish the early Masses were Low, but the 7, 8 and 9 had the organist and a singer, though they were Low Masses. Not enought priests for any High Masses, but on Sunday's we had Cantata and the choir was in the loft. At the Low Masses depending on the priest he'd plainchant parts. This wasn't Missa de Angelis.

tim
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#27
Today was a mess. Usually there is no choir. Today, one female. The offertory hymn? "Amazing Grace"!
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#28
Tim, a "dialogue Mass" is not anything other a Low Mass (Missa privata), and a Missa cantata is still considered a High Mass (note four to six candles lit). You are thinking of the Solemn High Mass (Missa solemnis) which require a deacon and subdeacon.
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#29
Sorry omitted the "Solemn", but Cantata is not a High Mass, it's a low Mass but sung. In common parlance the Solemn was not said before Vatican II, either it was High or Low. Privata and Solemn are words which have come into usage since then. It's another little change to Tradition a sort of affectation. Privata usually meant a priest celebrating at a side altar for himself or a soul in purgatory, but that was the 14 th century not 1900's.

tim
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#30
The original question is what was the point. What was going on was the Low Mass was going through organic change. High Masses took more priests and the Churches were packed beyond what any of you can imagine. People went to Mass and priests were needed for all the daily Masses.They were on a schedule and a  High Mass wasn't the answer.

Today with tiny chapels and a handful of parishoners it's more open ended, time and schedule are no longer concerns. Some priests like to paint a picture where these Low Masses were the beginning of Modernism, so the organic growth must be stifled, so the Silent Mass. That ain't tradition it's an agenda. If the Church recovers and most of the 80 million return, the High Mass will be a memory except on special Feasts.

Before Vatican II, priests would come from the Sacristy at the people's Communion to distribute Communion. On a Sunday it'd be easy 1000 people at 8:00 am Mass.After that it became crowded and many times men stood in the back because there were no seats.In my parish this was the Church and at one quarter after each hour another Mass was said in the Chapel which could be about 400. It was for those that came late.Folks didn't drive.

In summer I would go to the Chapel because it was air-conditioned, way cool for 1961.Disregarding whether those days were "golden" the Church was firing on all cylinders. All the arrows pointed in the right direction. While looking through old material on the net I found some numbers for the local minor seminary. Every year 400-600 went and about half went to the Seminary, and some didn't make it but that magnificent piece of architecture is not used at all now.


tim
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