Dialogue Mass: What's the point?
#31
(Posted without knowing)
Reply
#32
(02-17-2014, 08:03 AM)Tim Wrote: Sorry omitted the "Solemn", but Cantata is not a High Mass, it's a low Mass but sung. In common parlance the Solemn was not said before Vatican II, either it was High or Low. Privata and Solemn are words which have come into usage since then. It's another little change to Tradition a sort of affectation. Privata usually meant a priest celebrating at a side altar for himself or a soul in purgatory, but that was the 14 th century not 1900's.

tim
Tim, to have you no idea what you are talking about. Go grab Fr. Fortescue's liturgical books, read them and then come back me to me.

And if anything it is the novel monastic "Missa privata" or Low Mass that will be a thing almost unheard of. I firmly believe the whole Church will look more "Eastern" in that. The Mass is more properly chanted. The Solemn Mass is the Mass. The low Mass is only an sort of "indult" which originated from the early monasteries who had too many people to offer Mass for. It was horrible to heard two or more Masses being sung at one time so the Church invented the low Mass to be said in a low tone so it wasn't all a confused mess in the churches.
Reply
#33
The Missa Cantata is what most or many Tridentine Parishes do for their regular Sunday Masses (even if only monthly). It is the High Mass, and everyone calls It that by name. Most people want this. But it is painted as modernism by Sad Trads who erroneously believe that the faithful singing the parts of the Mass that they're supposed to is some consequence of modernism rather the true Liturgical Movement of St. Pius X. Young trads around here will not put up with that though. They do whatever they can to have more High Masses in more parishes. It's just some stubborn old folks at Society churches who think any participation at all by the faithful is modernism, and they are dying off and/or being ignored.
Reply
#34
(02-20-2014, 04:56 AM)GodFirst Wrote:
(02-17-2014, 08:03 AM)Tim Wrote: Sorry omitted the "Solemn", but Cantata is not a High Mass, it's a low Mass but sung. In common parlance the Solemn was not said before Vatican II, either it was High or Low. Privata and Solemn are words which have come into usage since then. It's another little change to Tradition a sort of affectation. Privata usually meant a priest celebrating at a side altar for himself or a soul in purgatory, but that was the 14 th century not 1900's.

tim
Tim, to have you no idea what you are talking about. Go grab Fr. Fortescue's liturgical books, read them and then come back me to me.

And if anything it is the novel monastic "Missa privata" or Low Mass that will be a thing almost unheard of. I firmly believe the whole Church will look more "Eastern" in that. The Mass is more properly chanted. The Solemn Mass is the Mass. The low Mass is only an sort of "indult" which originated from the early monasteries who had too many people to offer Mass for. It was horrible to heard two or more Masses being sung at one time so the Church invented the low Mass to be said in a low tone so it wasn't all a confused mess in the churches.

What I told you is what was actually happening on the ground not some historical tome on the Mass.  This is the problem today, you all are divorced from what went before and read books to fill the gaps. I have never seen in a parish several Masses being celebrated simultaneously. In a Monastery the priests all said their daily Mass at those tiny altars, but that was not in the Parishes.

If you look in the St. Andrew Missal by Dom Gaspar Lefebvre O S B, published 1945, on pages: 936 and 937,.  Dialogata, Recitata, and Cantata are Low Masses. Solemn High Mass was certainly the proper term but was not in common usage because they were nearly non-existent in Parishes. In fact in my neighborhood the only Church which listed a High Mass at 10:00 am on Sundays was a very old and beautifully quaint Anglican / Episcopalean.

Books and actual facts are usually different because every scholar has his pre-conceived notion of reality and writes to support it from modernists and schoolmen both.

tim
Reply
#35
Oh, so now Fr. Adrian Fortescue is a modernist. Now I've heard everything. Tim, I couldn't care less about what happened "on the ground". You probably don't even remember it correctly anyway. I will stick with today's common usage of terms for the Mass not what some internet elder says it was like in his one little parish in who knows where, USA. I will learn from the Catholic scholars and priests who came before us and not reject what their wisdom. I have a Missal too a Marian Missal, and it does not give those distinctions, because they are not real distinctions. The only distinction is between Sung (High, where "high" candles are lit) and not Sung but recited Mass (Low, with only the "low" candles lit).
Not to mention that your distinctions are pointless, because every trad now calls and considers the Missa Cantata a High Mass but just not a Solemn High Mass.
Reply
#36
(02-20-2014, 04:40 PM)GodFirst Wrote: Oh, so now Fr. Adrian Fortescue is a modernist. Now I've heard everything. Tim, I couldn't care less about what happened "on the ground". You probably don't even remember it correctly anyway. I will stick with today's common usage of terms for the Mass not what some internet elder says it was like in his one little parish in who knows where, USA. I will learn from the Catholic scholars and priests who came before us and not reject what their wisdom. I have a Missal too a Marian Missal, and it does not give those distinctions, because they are not real distinctions. The only distinction is between Sung (High, where "high" candles are lit) and not Sung but recited Mass (Low, with only the "low" candles lit).
Not to mention that your distinctions are pointless, because every trad now calls and considers the Missa Cantata a High Mass but just not a Solemn High Mass.

I have written here for years on what has passed. I am sort of an oral historian deepening the words which people read in books. I remember very well what went on before the Council. I was a kid and grew up in the Church with daily Mass attendance for 6 years. My distinctions are not mine but Dom Gaspar Lefebvre O S B.

I see you also don't understand me and what I wrote. I never said Fr. Fontescue was a modernist. I said from Modernists to Schoolmen all scholars have an agenda and it underlies their writings. It seems at first you were adamant the proper name was Solemn High Mass not the common High Mass.

A High Mass is not only sung, it has a sub-deacon and a deacon, and there are internal differences like the Sanctus and the Benedictus are separated. If they are sung one after the other the Mass is a Low Mass.

What the terms mean is Dialogata is the people make the responses. Recitata means they pray the ordinary along with the responses as in the Cantata but not sung. Cantata means the do the responses and ordinary and sing those parts if they can sing.

If you look in the St. Andrew Missal it explains as you go along the differences, and the parts the people are allowed to pray are bolded in black. If my memory is correct the St. Joseph Missal was similar. I've never looked in a Marian Missal, so you have me there.

I used the terms modernist and schoolmen  because many today think these Low Masses were the first step to the NO Mass. I say horsefeathers that was a complete departure.

tim
Reply
#37
(02-14-2014, 05:20 PM)FaithandLove Wrote:
(02-14-2014, 04:31 PM)PolishTrad Wrote:
"FaithandLove" Wrote:holding someone's hand during the Our Father
Do people actually do that? Gosh, I'd die there.

I was raised in liberal novus ordo parishes. Everyone did it. Our family all held hands. If I went to mass by myself, strangers would just reach over and take my hand, lifting it up in the air for the "... kingdom and glory..." part.

TOUCHDOWN!!

Oh boy...do they ever feel communal with that one!
Reply
#38
Tim, everyone trad know around me calls the Sung Mass without deacon and subdeacon a High Mass because that's what It is. My Marian missal makes it clear that Cantata is "in the nature of the High Mass".

And as far as the singing of the Benedictus after the Consecration that is up to the choir. I've been to Solemn Masses where Gregorian Chant is used throughout and the Benedictus is not separated from the rest of the Sanctus. I've also been to Missa Cantatas where the Benedictus is sung after the Consecration. This stuff is all up to the choir director.

Anyway perhaps the Missa Cantata is not per se "High Mass" but everyone calls it that so there's no point in calling it "Low Mass". Otherwise we're just going to confuse each other as trads.
Reply
#39
First we will have to disagree on the Missa Cantata being a High Mass. I rely on the St. Andrew Missal because I proof read the Masses on Divinum Officium from the Sarum to the actual Trent Mass to the versions in 1910, 1911, 1955, and 1962, and relied on it for accurate information .

So, I went and double checked my Missal and the rubrics are "At sung Masses the Benedictus is sung after the Elevation.. Mea Culpa that means both the Cantata and the High Mass, thus it does not determine which Mass it is.

Calling a Missa Cantata a High Mass is no different than  before Vatican II when we'd omit Solemn in the Name. It actually is of little importance except for those which need the actual information of the rubrics and that is out of the purview of laymen.

In fact Mass was always referred to as Mass without descriptor. If there is a Miracle and the 80 million Catholics return to Sunday Mass attendance I strongly believe we will return to that. With many of the big beautiful Churches gone, which could hold lots of people, we'll need a minimum of a dozen Masses on Sundays in every Church. And that means Low Masses on the half hour, again.

tim 
Reply
#40
(02-23-2014, 08:44 AM)Tim Wrote: It actually is of little importance except for those which need the actual information of the rubrics and that is out of the purview of laymen.

Exactly.  I've assisted at  Masses of varying degrees of solemnity from Solemn High "Missa Cantata", right down to a standard Low Mass.  Where I currently hear Mass we have some High Masses with no incense and Low Masses with sung Introit, Offertory and Recessional music, for example. 

What some people do not understand is that the Solemn High Mass is the model that all Masses should aim for, and whichever level of solemnity the Mass is offered it should be offered in the best possible way.  I know many who believe that the Low Mass is the standard because they were most common in parishes 50+ years ago.

(02-23-2014, 08:44 AM)Tim Wrote: In fact Mass was always referred to as Mass without descriptor. If there is a Miracle and the 80 million Catholics return to Sunday Mass attendance I strongly believe we will return to that. With many of the big beautiful Churches gone, which could hold lots of people, we'll need a minimum of a dozen Masses on Sundays in every Church. And that means Low Masses on the half hour, again.

I remember looking with awe (as a young man in the mid-1980s) at old telephone books from the 1950s and seeing Mass times listed on the half hour from 6AM to Noon and then Vespers being sung in the late afternoon. That experience was quite an eye opener for me.

Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)