Pope Francis: "[The Latin Mass] is rather a kind of fashion."
#11
(02-15-2014, 04:55 PM)Geremia Wrote:
(02-15-2014, 04:39 PM)Juanthetuba Wrote: Two things, First this is another "The Pope said" but no actual quotation from His Holiness.
This is the quotation:
(02-15-2014, 01:29 PM)Oatmeal Wrote: "When I search more thoroughly - the Pope said - I find that it is rather a kind of fashion [in Czech: 'móda', Italian 'moda']. And if it is a fashion, therefore it is a matter that does not need that much attention. It is just necessary to show some patience and kindness to people who are addicted to a certain fashion. But I consider greatly important to go deep into things, because if we do not go deep, no liturgical form, this or that one, can save us."[/b]

The quote is the Archbishop paraphrasing the Pope.

And it's been translated.

Twice.

Italian to Czech to English.
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#12
I don't know Czech but as a Slav I can more or less understand the sense of a written Czech text and I'd say that the translations are OK.
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#13
Juan is right about a couple of things, and I will even say that in a sense the Pope is right.
For one thing, the quoted piece here omits something that we have t guess at. On Rorate, they quote the whole section, but whereas the OP here says [The Latin Mass] this the Pope never says. So Geremia has inserted his own words in square brackets to alert us to the fact that these are his own rather than the Pope's words. I am fine with that. But I think it would have been more honest to Juan if the fact had been brought up just now, above.

In addition, in the Rorate excerpt, we have a sort of quotation as part of the Pope's answer to a question that has been paraphrased. for instance, notice how the Pope says "I find that IT is a rather . . . ." What is "IT"?? Not the "Latin Mass." The NO is a "Latin Mass" to begin with, translated into vernacular or celebrated as NO in Latin. (There is also, as far as I know, no such thing as a "Full Mass" as mentioned above by Heorot). In the end, we can only speculate that "IT" was meant to refer to what was described in the Rorate excerpt as follows: "However, he made a quite strong statement when he said that he understands when the old generation returns to what it experienced], but that he cannot understand the younger generation wishing to return to it.  .  

This may sound like quibbling over non-essentials, but I think it paints a different picture. Earlier in the Rorate excerpt, the speaker (not the Pope) refers to the "ancient liturgy" and here again, we have a speaker paraphrasing the Pope's words before the direct quotation. Even if we assume the speaker's credibility, we have to assume that what the Pope objected to was not specifically "the Latin Mass" or even necessarily the "TLM" but this business of a young generation of people desiring something it never experienced before. I find this observation to be one of two utterly fascinating ones:
1. If true, we can have high hopes for the future. Many here have said that this Pope is the first not to have been raised on the TLM. But the Pope is telling us that there is a phenomenon of people who have never known it as children who want it now. This Pope might not care a fig for the TLM; but he is seeing a lot of young people raised without it who WANT IT. Perhaps not knowing it will make future generations of priests immune to the TLM-phobia created by men who were raised in and on the TLM. We can hope. This Pope is not one of them, and the fact that he discounts its importance also works in our favor. The real old guard are always battling it. They know they cannot ignore it.
2. I think this Pope knows something and accepts something that no one here wants to hear: it is an absurdity to have 2 Latin rites as we do now. Former Pope Benedict did this to correct a historical inaccuracy and injustice, and so that a TRUE REFORM of the Roman rite could begin. The Roman Rite is to be reformed. It should have been reformed after VII. They buggered up that job. So now we are left with this abnormality. And at some point, there should be only 1Roman Rite, one form of it. Period. Catholics are supposed to believe as one and worship as one, within the East-West 'zoning' differences that result in Eastern and Western Rite Catholics. The TLM has been reformed before. It will be reformed again. Probably, the reforms will be those intended by VII, which are actually minimal. The instructions against liturgical abuses coming out of the Vatican, and the recent vernacular translations, are all parts of trying to create a process for one reformed Roman Rite.
Even the idea of TLM groups is odd. Yes, they are necessary now, but only because of a seriously botched job. If the TLM had undergone the usual cosmetic reforms following the Council, these groups would have no reason to exist. In the happy future, there should be 1 Western Rite Form, 1 Mass, and all priests should be celebrating it.  For now, we have abnormality everywhere. But over time, it will improve. God will never abandon His Church.
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#14
Most Trads in my parish are more "deep" into the faith than the Pope and his Bishops are. AS for the Novus Ordo folks now that they have their mass in their own tongue they know soo much more now.  YEAH RIGHT!!!!!
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#15
Light up the stakes! We got a Pope, some Bishops and a whole lot of NO-goers to burn tonight!
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#16
Makes him sound like a toxic modernist.
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#17
So the tango dance knows Fashion- that nice to know but he has no class.
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#18
If the analogy is to fashion, then it actually fits.

Men's fashions are timeless and change very little over time just like the TLM.

Women's fashions are very fleeting and transient as is the Nouvus Ordo.
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#19
[size=10pt]So this is out of style:[/size]

[Image: Missa_tridentina_002.jpg]

But this isn't:

[Image: Lampedusa3.jpg?itok=z2TVpqPM]

Got it.
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#20
Mons. Marini looks better dressed than all of them.

By the way that first pic of yours is beautiful. What's its origin?
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