Pope Francis: "[The Latin Mass] is rather a kind of fashion."
#41
(02-17-2014, 10:24 AM)Gabriel Serafin Wrote: The Holy father is simply reminding people that religiosity is not the same thing as holiness, and he's getting to the heart of  what it means to be a true disciple of Christ---and it has nothing to do with religious liturgies
He was the one who mentioned religious liturgies. If he doesn't consider the Mass that has sanctified myriads of saints a means to holiness, or that the Mass (or the sacraments in general) is no longer a necessary means to salvation for "modern man," then he is a Modernist.
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#42
(02-17-2014, 11:43 AM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote: There ARE some "fad trads" out there, though. :/
Those who are the seed that fell upon rock and have no roots
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#43
(02-17-2014, 11:50 AM)Geremia Wrote: If he doesn't consider the Mass that has sanctified myriads of saints a means to holiness, or that the Mass (or the sacraments in general) is no longer a necessary means to salvation for "modern man," then he is a Modernist.
Don't be silly, the pope is not saying that at all. Pope Francis has spoken often about the Mass and the Eucharist as being the summit and source of our Faith. I think he is concerned about people who go to Mass and who are hypocrites or confuse religiosity with holiness. But here is the pope speaking about the power of the Eucharist:
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#44
(02-17-2014, 12:50 PM)Gabriel Serafin Wrote:
(02-17-2014, 11:50 AM)Geremia Wrote: If he doesn't consider the Mass that has sanctified myriads of saints a means to holiness, or that the Mass (or the sacraments in general) is no longer a necessary means to salvation for "modern man," then he is a Modernist.
Don't be silly, the pope is not saying that at all. Pope Francis has spoken often about the Mass and the Eucharist as being the summit and source of our Faith.
Yet he considers the Mass of All Ages a fashion! You still haven't addressed why he even brought that up if what he is really talking about is religiosity and holiness, as you claim.
(02-17-2014, 12:50 PM)Gabriel Serafin Wrote: I think he is concerned about people who go to Mass and who are hypocrites or confuse religiosity with holiness.
But what's that got to do with the Mass of All Ages?
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#45
The way people attempt to spin these words into something spiritually insightful is breathtaking. 

The idiotic Pollyannaism that infects places like Catholic Answers is not doing anyone any good, so can we please just stop it?
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#46
(02-17-2014, 03:19 PM)digitalpapist Wrote: The way people attempt to spin these words into something spiritually insightful is breathtaking. 

The idiotic Pollyannaism that infects places like Catholic Answers is not doing anyone any good, so can we please just stop it?
Modernists are masters at this.
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#47
(02-17-2014, 03:19 PM)digitalpapist Wrote: The way people attempt to spin these words into something spiritually insightful is breathtaking. 

The idiotic Pollyannaism that infects places like Catholic Answers is not doing anyone any good, so can we please just stop it?

:thumb:
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#48
(02-16-2014, 01:55 AM)Chestertonian Wrote: yeah, no change at all

If you're comparing the effeminate male fashion of the aristocracy to the NO "fashion statement" , I concur.

If you look back in art (Medieval through 21st Century) the peasants look pretty much exactly the same throughout the ages.

Before the 5th Century  the dress was Romanesque, so I stand on my previous statement and will take 1.500 years of rock solid liturgy  vs. 50 years of shaky innovation.   :)
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#49
Pope Francis believes, as did Benedict XVI, JPII, and Paul VI, that the "Mass of all Ages" is the Catholic Mass in every legitimate rite, including the NO.So, for Pope Francis, as for former Pope Benedict XVI, the TLM is a matter for a small number of people in the Catholic Church. Therefore, in a sense, it is a "moda" to desire exclusively the "Extraordinary Form," because it is only desired by a few, and the members of the Catholic hierarchy, including former Pope Benedict XVI, saw this as a small group of people attached to the ancient liturgy.

In their eyes, including those of Benedict, it's not like there is some "Mass of All Ages" on one side where all the holy people are, and a sort of dirty, invalid "NO" somewhere else in the gutter. They see one Mass. And they see a relatively small minority of people in the Church attached to it. In this sense, it is a "moda." Former Pope Benedict felt that he could use clarification on the legitimacy of the ancient liturgy to attract SSPX people back into canonically regular Catholic life. It was a tool for him. A beautiful tool, but a tool, a tool to help improve the NO, but still a tool, a legitimate form of the Roman Rite.

So no, the Pope is not a Modernist for missing the importance of the TLM in the Catholic Church. He just doesn't get it. And from the perspective of the Holy See, exclusive dedication to ancient liturgies (not the TLM, not the Mass, but attachment to ancient liturgies) is a fashion, which it is. Some fashions tend to catch on, though, like Mass facing the people, or spaceship churches, or ugly chasubles. So yes, it is a fashion. Men wearing pants is a fashion. Lasts a long time. Lets hope ours takes over and lasts again.
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#50
(02-17-2014, 02:16 PM)Geremia Wrote: what's that got to do with the Mass of All Ages?
The Mass is the Mass. There is no particular "mass of all the ages". Every valid Mass is a "mass of all ages" and a participation in the one Sacrifice of Christ 2000 years ago.  The TLM came into being in 1570 and Pope Pius X and Pius XII made changes to it.  But Pope Francis was merely stating that for some people it seems fashionable to attend the TLM.  But his catechetical point is that "if we do not go deep, no liturgical form, this or that one, can save us."
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