Y'all are gonna want to watch this...
#11
(02-20-2014, 04:06 PM)winoblue1 Wrote: Quote:

"Palmer said that the Catholic-Protestant divisions have had no reason to exist since the 1999 Catholic-Lutheran Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. The agreement recognized that "by grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."
____________________________

Is this true? Is this what the Church believes? I thought Catholics believe it is a combination of Grace and Good Works?

Can someone clarify?

Here is what the Council of Trent teaches:
The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient [Page 33] grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.

The good works that we do are works of God's grace and not our own merits. The Church teaches that good works are necessary, yes, but not because good works contribute to our salvation but because both faith and good works are the result of grace and faith without works is dead.
but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

The problem with the Protestant teaching is "by faith alone" which says that good works are unnecessary and that sins don't matter, as long as the faith is kept:
In opposition also to the subtle wits of certain men, who, by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent, it is to be maintained, that the received grace of Justification is lost, not only by infidelity whereby even faith itself is lost, but also by any other mortal sin whatever, though faith be not lost


I know that hard-line Protestants think that this joint declaration was a sellout to the Vatican, just like many Trads believe the declaration was a sellout to the Protestants.
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#12
This sounds like the universal brotherhood of man. How can this be? What happens to all the Catholic Dogmas? Do you understand what this would mean if the Holy Father really believes what this video implies?  As traditional Catholics, we would ipso facto be seen as enemies by our own Pope. This just can't be.
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#13
(02-20-2014, 04:06 PM)winoblue1 Wrote: Quote:

"Palmer said that the Catholic-Protestant divisions have had no reason to exist since the 1999 Catholic-Lutheran Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. The agreement recognized that "by grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."
____________________________

Is this true? Is this what the Church believes? I thought Catholics believe it is a combination of Grace and Good Works?

Can someone clarify?

We are saved by GRACE alone. We are not saved by faith, nor by works, but by the grace of Christ --- a grace which we receive BY a faith that works in love. See http://www.fisheaters.com/solafide.html

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#14
(02-20-2014, 06:04 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(02-20-2014, 04:06 PM)winoblue1 Wrote: Quote:

"Palmer said that the Catholic-Protestant divisions have had no reason to exist since the 1999 Catholic-Lutheran Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. The agreement recognized that "by grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."
____________________________

Is this true? Is this what the Church believes? I thought Catholics believe it is a combination of Grace and Good Works?

Can someone clarify?

We are saved by GRACE alone. We are not saved by faith, nor by works, but by the grace of Christ --- a grace which we receive BY a faith that works in love. See http://www.fisheaters.com/solafide.html

Our works merit nothing unless we are in a state of grace, and unless they are united with Christ's sacrifice on Calvary.  Fr. Ripperger say this very bluntly in one of his sermons on the spiritual life.

Both Catholics and Protestants believe we are saved by grace alone. Grace = God's unmerited favor.

BUT

Our theology is still so very different, this really seems to be only a superficial agreement, not a truly semantic agreement.  There is still no room for works in Protestantism; grace comes only through faith, there's not much in the way of active cooperation with God's grace.

Also, traditionally, Catholics believe in the satisfaction theory of the atonement, not the protestant penal substitution theory, and that creates an entirely different understanding of how God's grace operates.  The protestant perspective on Christ's sacrifice was created as a way out of having to depend on priests, sacraments, and intercessory prayer.

Even my Lutheran pastor friend doesn't think the joint agreement was a good idea. From his perspective it's trying to say that two different things are the same when they're not, and I agree.
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#15
(02-20-2014, 04:17 PM)Heorot Wrote: I don't grasp how the teaching - or the understanding of the teaching - has changed since 1999. If our beliefs weren't all that different from 1520-1999, why the 450+ years of separation? All this is very suspicious and Modernist-sounding.

IMO, it's because Protestants are always accusing us of believing things we don't. If the Pope were to publish something that affirms we don't worship statues, Protestants might see it as some sort of "concession," too LOL

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#16
The big hub bub at the time was the Protestants didn't believe we believed that. The Catholic Epistles were a stumbling block. It took tons of going over the same ground to get them to agree, and when signed it was expected the Lutherans would come over, which never happened except for Fr. Neuhaus.

I had a pal I worked with and he lived in the burbs. He would tell me he was Catholic too, though Lutheran. He knew the Catholic Parish near him and he'd consult with the Pastor priest there when he had an issue in his church. He was an elder there.

His name was James and all I had to do to push his buttons was bring up the Epistle of James which says Faith without works is dead.

tim
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#17
I am waiting for Gabriel Serafin to take his job on this one!  :)
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#18
(02-20-2014, 06:59 PM)Filipino Catholic Wrote: I am waiting for Gabriel Serafin to take his job on this one!  :)
I'm interested in his thoughts as well.

:titanic:
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#19
(02-20-2014, 06:26 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: IMO, it's because Protestants are always accusing us of believing things we don't. If the Pope were to publish something that affirms we don't worship statues, Protestants might see it as some sort of "concession," too LOL

Probably true!  :LOL:  It always amazes me how much Luther got so very wrong for such an educated man.

Something that's always stood out in my mind as a former protestant is reading one particular objection to Catholicism about how Catholics supposedly try to re-sacrifice Christ on the altar at every Mass.  I remember after attending an NO Mass for about a year straight and going to RCIA classes, I thought "how absurd! I don't see absolutely anything about the Mass that resembles a sacrifice." And then I visited my first Tridentine Mass and said to myself, "Oh!" 

Granted, the answer to the objection is that of course we don't re-sacrifice Our Lord, we just re-present the same sacrifice of Calvary to God.  But isn't it telling how much the NO has been revised so that the average lay person can't really see much in the Mass that's different from a high church protestant service? And funny (and sad) that sometimes the protestants know what we're supposed to believe better than we do because they are still objecting to what their forebears saw generations ago?
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#20
"Kathy J VanDyke" Wrote:Then their(sic) is The Rosary and Mary worship. And so many other things that would have to go, if the Catholcs(sic) don't want to completely confuse The Gospel. 

I'm all for promoting christian unity as long as it does not require compromising The Faith.  Obviously from the above comments and others on YouTube, there is still a long row to hoe.

While I'm thinking about it, are there any credible statistics on enrollment figures in sedevacantist parishes since Pope Francis' election?  I have to admit that I've recently discussed with my confessor(FSSP) the possibility of going SSPX or sede (to be clear, I don't consider the SSPX to be sede).
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