Y'all are gonna want to watch this...
#21
(02-20-2014, 08:19 PM)iona_scribe Wrote: Probably true!  :LOL:  It always amazes me how much Luther got so very wrong for such an educated man.

Something that's always stood out in my mind as a former protestant is reading one particular objection to Catholicism about how Catholics supposedly try to re-sacrifice Christ on the altar at every Mass.  I remember after attending an NO Mass for about a year straight and going to RCIA classes, I thought "how absurd! I don't see absolutely anything about the Mass that resembles a sacrifice." And then I visited my first Tridentine Mass and said to myself, "Oh!" 

Granted, the answer to the objection is that of course we don't re-sacrifice Our Lord, we just re-present the same sacrifice of Calvary to God.  But isn't it telling how much the NO has been revised so that the average lay person can't really see much in the Mass that's different from a high church protestant service? And funny (and sad) that sometimes the protestants know what we're supposed to believe better than we do because they are still objecting to what their forebears saw generations ago?

Wow... That is a very scary and very telling story, Iona. VERY telling. And you saw how things were right away when you attended a TLM.

Ya know, on the FE page about the Mass (the Introduction page), I link to Belloc's story about "the powers of integration," and I do that for a good reason. Both the NO and the TLM are valid -- but, well, diamonds and coal are both made of carbon, as Belloc says. Folks who focus only on validity and whitewash over the prayers, readings, language, rubrics that so clearly show that what's going on is sacred, the chant, the architecture, the stained glass, the incense, the women wearing veils, the reverential attitude on the part of the folks in the pews, the genuflections, etc. -- those people just don't have the power of integration (and they definitely lack a sense of poetry, beauty, and History!). This page explains it:  http://www.fisheaters.com/bellocintegration.html

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#22
The Christians that are closest to us in terms of belief and worship are the Orthodox churches, not Protestants. I don't understand why there is so much effort to find common ground with Christians who do not have valid Holy Orders or a sacramental understanding of things. As far as Church unity goes there is simply no clear yet charitable call for those outside the Catholic Church to come into her fold. That no one, not even the Pope, is willing to just come out and say it anymore is telling. A good example of this is the new "Christian Unity Week" with Vatican officials writing joint ecumenical liturgies and reflections with the WCC. There is zero call to return to Catholic unity, only a vague endless dialogue about how unity doesn't exist yet. Finally, it's telling that in the back of the St. Josephs Edition of the NAB the definition of Church actually says (if I recall correctly) that the true Church will only come into existence at the end of time. It's bizarre to say the least. Do modern Churchmen actually believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the Church of Christ and that the unity Christ wanted was for all men without exception to belong to her?
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#23
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#24
(02-20-2014, 03:20 PM)KurutzeMaitea Wrote: I am speechless.

I wonder if he could call Mgr. Fellay his "brother bishop", or if he yearns unity with the catholics attached to the traditional "fashion"...
Archbishop Mueller referred to Bishop Fellay as a brother bishop and said that he yearns for unity with Catholics attached to the traditional "fashion."
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#25
If that Accord is a first step for them to understand truly what the Church teaches it'd be grand. A little more on the Lutherans I knew, they were nearly insane on pointing out good works can only done for the love of Jesus. They have this strong belief that we're pelagians, believing our works are what save. Fr. Gruner lately in his talks has mentioned while he was studying for Theology the Professor said all Canadians and US folks are semi-pelagians. This shook him up and he said after awhile he realized the Professor was right

tim
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#26
Our Holy Father has an agenda.  He seems to wish to finish what Vatican 2 began.  Many of His actions to date show that he is in step with the more troublesome aspects from the documents. I cannot believe that his words are accidents.  We are in for a very turbulent time. Prepare for a further protestantizing of the Church.

And as an aside, Keneth Copeland??? Really?  >:(
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#27
The more I think about what was said in this video, the more troubled I become. This Rev. Tony Palmer knows the Pope intimately.  The Pope even called him before the conclave to ask him for prayers. He said the Pope personally mentored him in his understanding of the faith, so the Holy Father knows and endorses what this man believes. Remember, also, it was not the Reverend who contacted the Pope; it was the Holy Father who contacted him for this interview.

The thing about it is, why would the Pope sit down with him and insist that this man use an iPhone to videotape a special message for the Kenneth Copeland Ministry?  Doesn't it make it look as though the Pope is purposely trying to subvert his own Vatican vetting system? I just don't know what to think about such a thing, but anyway you look at it, it doesn't look good and is highly unusual behavior for a Pope.

But, you know, that's not the part of this thing that disturbs me the most. It's what this man said. Did you really listen to what Rev. Palmer was saying? Remember, this is the Pope's good friend. He says that it is the Presence of God in you that makes you a Catholic.  It is not the doctrines that you believe. The doctrines just get in the way of unity.  They are divisive, and anything divisive is diabolical.  The divine lies in diversity. Listen to his own words:

"I've come to understand that diversity is divine. It is division that is diabolic."... "It's the glory, [the Presence of God] that glues us together, not the doctrines"... "If you accept the Presence of God is in me and the Presence of God is in you, that's all we need, because God will sort out all our doctrines when we get upstairs."

Can't you see what this means for traditional Catholics who have always insisted on clear and well-defined doctrines? By necessity, we would be the odd man out.  There is no place for us in this system.  We are its antithesis. That is why I wrote earlier in this thread that, as traditional Catholics, we would ipso facto be seen as enemies by our own Pope.

To make things even worse, Rev. Palmer seems to elevate unity and diversity to the highest purpose of the Church. Do you know what the logical conclusion to this would be? It would mean that all doctrines would have to eventually go, and ultimately, Christ himself would have to make way for this new god of unity and diversity. This would be the end of Catholicism as we know it. Terrible, just terrible, to even contemplate.
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#28
(02-21-2014, 08:20 PM)Might_4_Right Wrote: The more I think about what was said in this video, the more troubled I become. This Rev. Tony Palmer knows the Pope intimately.  The Pope even called him before the conclave to ask him for prayers. He said the Pope personally mentored him in his understanding of the faith, so the Holy Father knows and endorses what this man believes. Remember, also, it was not the Reverend who contacted the Pope; it was the Holy Father who contacted him for this interview.

The thing about it is, why would the Pope sit down with him and insist that this man use an iPhone to videotape a special message for the Kenneth Copeland Ministry?  Doesn't it make it look as though the Pope is purposely trying to subvert his own Vatican vetting system? I just don't know what to think about such a thing, but anyway you look at it, it doesn't look good and is highly unusual behavior for a Pope.

But, you know, that's not the part of this thing that disturbs me the most. It's what this man said. Did you really listen to what Rev. Palmer was saying? Remember, this is the Pope's good friend. He says that it is the Presence of God in you that makes you a Catholic.  It is not the doctrines that you believe. The doctrines just get in the way of unity.  They are divisive, and anything divisive is diabolical.  The divine lies in diversity. Listen to his own words:

"I've come to understand that diversity is divine. It is division that is diabolic."... "It's the glory, [the Presence of God] that glues us together, not the doctrines"... "If you accept the Presence of God is in me and the Presence of God is in you, that's all we need, because God will sort out all our doctrines when we get upstairs."

Can't you see what this means for traditional Catholics who have always insisted on clear and well-defined doctrines? By necessity, we would be the odd man out.  There is no place for us in this system.  We are its antithesis. That is why I wrote earlier in this thread that, as traditional Catholics, we would ipso facto be seen as enemies by our own Pope.

To make things even worse, Rev. Palmer seems to elevate unity and diversity to the highest purpose of the Church. Do you know what the logical conclusion to this would be? It would mean that all doctrines would have to eventually go, and ultimately, Christ himself would have to make way for this new god of unity and diversity. This would be the end of Catholicism as we know it. Terrible, just terrible, to even contemplate.

The actions of the Pope do appear to back this up...
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#29
This is very troubling indeed, there is no way to "Read Francis through Benedict" on this one Father Z of "What did the Pope really say?" and

Jimmy Akin's "Did Pope Francis really call a protestant a Bishop? 9-points on......ahhh f*ck it! I can't do this pretzle anymore!!!"


I predict the Francis defenders are going to start being mum now and we will see less defense as the whoppers become less and less defensible.
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#30
I did a google search on Bishop Tony Palmer and found this article written by Fr. Dwight Longenecker. It was posted only yesterday, Feb 21, 2014

http://foolishnesstotheworld.wordpress.c...ny-palmer/

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