The Experiences of Homosexual Trads
#81
(02-28-2014, 08:42 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote: Yes, that's what I meant - although there are many cases where SSA retreats and exists along with normal (yes, normal) attraction to the opposite sex.  Just like a recovering alcoholic, such a person may struggle to some extent with SSA for the long haul, but that does not mean they should not marry.  It may well be their calling to do so.

I apologize for being as snippy towards you as I was.

S'all good! No worries :)
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#82
Fascinating exchange to witness, ACT and Vox. There seem to be two completely opposite Trad camps when it comes to gay identity. Probably more... :)
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#83
Thank you for having this important discussion on the forum. As someone with ssa who's trying to be a faithful Catholic, the problem I have is sometimes I get resentful that I'm forced to live a chaste celibate life. For a priest or religious this vocation is self chosen after much thought and prayer. If during discernment they decide they don't have a vocation to be a priest or religious, they can find a opposite sex partner and fall in love and have sex and romantic companionship for the rest of their lives.  On the other hand the traditional Catholic homosexual who wants to be faithful to the Church and her teachings won't pursue being a priest or religious because they know it would be wrong and they probably wouldn't get married to an opposite sex partner because the lack of attraction or interest for the opposite sex and they also would not seek out a same sex partner because of the sinfulness that are involved in those relationships. That doesn't leave to many more options other than be a single chaste celibate lay person rather you want to be or not. Your vocation has already been chosen for you. And I don't think to many heterosexual Catholics really understand the issue because it doesn't affect them personally. They get to marry and have companionship and sex and romance. And there's where my resentment comes in. I try not to let it get to me and I try to remember that God has given me this wonderful gift of the Catholic faith and he has a special plan for my life. And sometimes I wonder if a chaste celibate life actually has its benefits in helping you get to heaven.
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#84
Quote:But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife, is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband. (1 Corinthians 7:32-34 DRA)

Those with SSA have an opportunity to be servants of the Body, being not solicitous for the cares of the world. While they generally are not priests or religious, this allows them the chance to have greater freedom in Christ. A heterosexual priest does not automatically lose his sexual desires. A single man who is not with SSA doesn't lose his either.

The die is cast, the lot is know, the choice is easy to see: Christ, or the Devil.

Keep up the fight. Not all in the view of heterosexual couples is accurate. There's much consternation. A man with wife and children can't just randomly do things. Neither can a priest. You all with SSA have a greater freedom in Christ than many; do not look on what you can't have, but what you can. Do not look on the taunting images of abusive relationships cast as "love", within the unchaste milieu of the homosexuals. They are slaves to slavery. In Christ, you are slaves to freedom in Christ. You can choose to live simply and serve all. Or, God forbid, you can choose to serve self.

Either way, no matter one's proclivity, the choice remains: serve Christ or serve the Devil.

It ain't easy on the "straight" side. The grass is green with toddler puke. It's affection with mood swings. It's keep my mouth shut in front of a shithead boss so wife and children don't go without.

You don't have those problems. Praise God and keep running the race.

Life is short on earth. Don't forsake eternity for now. Such is the goal of all, gay or straight.

Keep fighting. Stick with Mary. Be Christ in the world.
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#85
(03-01-2014, 03:39 AM)jhfromsf68 Wrote: Thank you for having this important discussion on the forum. As someone with ssa who's trying to be a faithful Catholic, the problem I have is sometimes I get resentful that I'm forced to live a chaste celibate life. For a priest or religious this vocation is self chosen after much thought and prayer. If during discernment they decide they don't have a vocation to be a priest or religious, they can find a opposite sex partner and fall in love and have sex and romantic companionship for the rest of their lives.  On the other hand the traditional Catholic homosexual who wants to be faithful to the Church and her teachings won't pursue being a priest or religious because they know it would be wrong and they probably wouldn't get married to an opposite sex partner because the lack of attraction or interest for the opposite sex and they also would not seek out a same sex partner because of the sinfulness that are involved in those relationships. That doesn't leave to many more options other than be a single chaste celibate lay person rather you want to be or not. Your vocation has already been chosen for you. And I don't think to many heterosexual Catholics really understand the issue because it doesn't affect them personally. They get to marry and have companionship and sex and romance. And there's where my resentment comes in. I try not to let it get to me and I try to remember that God has given me this wonderful gift of the Catholic faith and he has a special plan for my life. And sometimes I wonder if a chaste celibate life actually has its benefits in helping you get to heaven.

According to St. Paul, a chaste celibate life is the most perfect way of living. But I totally hear you when you talk of your lack of choice in the matter. Just know, though, that there are, undoubtedly, many more (numerically speaking) straight people who also don't have a real choice and are "consigned" to a life of chaste celibacy.  Religious orders and seminaries won't accept folks with mental issues, health problems, debt, etc., and marriage nowadays is a very iffy proposition in that it's hard to come by a spouse in the first place, and then, if you are blessed enough to find one, you can always get dumped and are left with nothing but sexual continence for the rest of your life (unless the former spouse dies).

I say all this NOT to belittle your pain, but just to let you know that you share it with lots of straight people, too. You're not alone in maybe wanting the religious life or ordination and finding it closed to you, or wanting sexual intimacy and finding that a moral impossibility, also.

What's different, as I see things, is how folks treat others in the exact same situations with the only difference being that some are attracted to the same sex, and others are thrust into chaste celibacy, for whatever reasons, while straight. I think most Catholics can feel empathy toward, say, a nice married man who got dumped by a crazy wife -- but when it comes to folks with SSA, who in the end, are in the same sort of position when it comes to vocation, some folks are all "Why do you have to talk about that?" or "why do you want to 'identify' yourself by your SSA?" or they make assumptions, etc., etc.

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#86
(02-28-2014, 08:23 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote:
(02-28-2014, 03:05 PM)PolishTrad Wrote:
"A Catholic Thinker" Wrote:The Catholic who suffers from SSA should not only maintain chastity but also strive to get to the bottom of his disordered inclinations and, if possible, marry.
And then divorce, and leave the wife and children.

Actually, good Catholics don't divorce.
Later on you explained that you were referring to people who appear to have overcome the SSA. But still, I think that a good Catholic does not create situations which might then create more harm. One shouldn't risk that much.
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#87
(03-01-2014, 03:56 AM)jonbhorton Wrote: Those with SSA have an opportunity to be servants of the Body, being not solicitous for the cares of the world. While they generally are not priests or religious, this allows them the chance to have greater freedom in Christ. A heterosexual priest does not automatically lose his sexual desires. A single man who is not with SSA doesn't lose his either.

The die is cast, the lot is know, the choice is easy to see: Christ, or the Devil.

Keep up the fight. Not all in the view of heterosexual couples is accurate. There's much consternation. A man with wife and children can't just randomly do things. Neither can a priest. You all with SSA have a greater freedom in Christ than many; do not look on what you can't have, but what you can. Do not look on the taunting images of abusive relationships cast as "love", within the unchaste milieu of the homosexuals. They are slaves to slavery. In Christ, you are slaves to freedom in Christ. You can choose to live simply and serve all. Or, God forbid, you can choose to serve self.

Either way, no matter one's proclivity, the choice remains: serve Christ or serve the Devil.

It ain't easy on the "straight" side. The grass is green with toddler puke. It's affection with mood swings. It's keep my mouth shut in front of a shithead boss so wife and children don't go without.

You don't have those problems. Praise God and keep running the race.

Life is short on earth. Don't forsake eternity for now. Such is the goal of all, gay or straight.

Keep fighting. Stick with Mary. Be Christ in the world.

johnbhorton, thank you for this solicitous post. It is incredibly uplifting and edifying to see such an attitude from a straight trad. jsfromsf68 really placed our sense of futility - a seemingly fated life without freedom - in excellent context. I would think it's easy for SSA people, and especially trads, to fall into the heresy of Jansenism. We are heavy with sorrow about the lack of opportunities in conventional Church life, and we feel that it is impossible for us to be otherwise than we are. The Calvinists would have us believe that we can't do anything because of our total depravity, and that there is no point in even attempting to have hope. Your message has imparted hope.

You help me personally realize that the celibate, lay SSA man can, in fact mirror Christ in a deeply sacramental way. He is not alter christus at the altar, not alter christus in the home with the wife, but he is capable of becoming a perfect alter christus for every stranger he meets. Christ was not married; Christ was not recognized as a Levite or Priest. We ourselves can enter into that reality perfectly, if we only cast away the devil and the lusts of the flesh, taking off the Old Man and putting on the New. Thanks be to God for baptism, confirmation, and holy communion. Thanks be to God that, regardless of our fears, nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Let us exercise the liberty of the children of God, brethren, in every state which comes to us from Heaven/
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#88
(03-01-2014, 03:39 AM)jhfromsf68 Wrote: Thank you for having this important discussion on the forum. As someone with ssa who's trying to be a faithful Catholic, the problem I have is sometimes I get resentful that I'm forced to live a chaste celibate life. For a priest or religious this vocation is self chosen after much thought and prayer. If during discernment they decide they don't have a vocation to be a priest or religious, they can find a opposite sex partner and fall in love and have sex and romantic companionship for the rest of their lives.  On the other hand the traditional Catholic homosexual who wants to be faithful to the Church and her teachings won't pursue being a priest or religious because they know it would be wrong and they probably wouldn't get married to an opposite sex partner because the lack of attraction or interest for the opposite sex and they also would not seek out a same sex partner because of the sinfulness that are involved in those relationships. That doesn't leave to many more options other than be a single chaste celibate lay person rather you want to be or not. Your vocation has already been chosen for you. And I don't think to many heterosexual Catholics really understand the issue because it doesn't affect them personally. They get to marry and have companionship and sex and romance. And there's where my resentment comes in. I try not to let it get to me and I try to remember that God has given me this wonderful gift of the Catholic faith and he has a special plan for my life. And sometimes I wonder if a chaste celibate life actually has its benefits in helping you get to heaven.


I truly understand
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#89
(03-01-2014, 03:56 AM)jonbhorton Wrote:
Quote:But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife, is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband. (1 Corinthians 7:32-34 DRA)

Those with SSA have an opportunity to be servants of the Body, being not solicitous for the cares of the world. While they generally are not priests or religious, this allows them the chance to have greater freedom in Christ. A heterosexual priest does not automatically lose his sexual desires. A single man who is not with SSA doesn't lose his either.

The die is cast, the lot is know, the choice is easy to see: Christ, or the Devil.

Keep up the fight. Not all in the view of heterosexual couples is accurate. There's much consternation. A man with wife and children can't just randomly do things. Neither can a priest. You all with SSA have a greater freedom in Christ than many; do not look on what you can't have, but what you can. Do not look on the taunting images of abusive relationships cast as "love", within the unchaste milieu of the homosexuals. They are slaves to slavery. In Christ, you are slaves to freedom in Christ. You can choose to live simply and serve all. Or, God forbid, you can choose to serve self.

Either way, no matter one's proclivity, the choice remains: serve Christ or serve the Devil.

It ain't easy on the "straight" side. The grass is green with toddler puke. It's affection with mood swings. It's keep my mouth shut in front of a shithead boss so wife and children don't go without.

You don't have those problems. Praise God and keep running the race.

Life is short on earth. Don't forsake eternity for now. Such is the goal of all, gay or straight.

Keep fighting. Stick with Mary. Be Christ in the world.

Lord have mercy on us all.
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#90
(02-28-2014, 08:54 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(02-28-2014, 08:23 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote:
(02-28-2014, 03:05 PM)PolishTrad Wrote:
"A Catholic Thinker" Wrote:The Catholic who suffers from SSA should not only maintain chastity but also strive to get to the bottom of his disordered inclinations and, if possible, marry.
And then divorce, and leave the wife and children.

Actually, good Catholics don't divorce.

Sometimes they do for egregious cause. They just can't remarry. And sometimes good Catholics get dumped and handed divorce papers. Not a lot he or she can do about that sort of thing...

Yes, you are correct there, of course.
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