The Experiences of Homosexual Trads
#40
(02-27-2014, 02:31 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: I'm confused as to why you see this dichotomy here -- that EITHER one "slithers" into the priesthood OR one is, in essence, "useless". I mean, I can understand if one wants to be a priest and is frustrated and pained to find that that avenue is closed to him (I can only begin to imagine the suffering!), but to conclude that, since one can't be a priest, one is "outside in loneliness" and is living a life marked by "purposelessness" is another thing entirely!

To be honest, Vox, this is where my impressions of the traditionalism come in. I firmly believe that my homosexuality urged me forward to become Catholic specifically because of the image of "Mother Church", protecting and safe. The manliness of the old saints and popes also created a very strong fatherly image, and Benedict XVI was pope at the time, so he continued this impression. Both of my deepest psychological needs, as a gay man, were met. I started, long before my novus ordo catechumenate, by listening to traditionalist sermons, mostly from Audio Sancto and Sensus Traditionis. Although I am sure they meant well, they placed what seemed to me an exaggerated emphasis on the dignity of the priesthood and, in order to counteract the Novus Ordo "priesthood of the laity" mentality, they completely debased the role of the laity. I listened to many hours, and came out of it with the impression that in Real Catholicism, the laity exist to pay, pray, and obey (as they often say), and to be led basically like dumb sheep by the real Christians - i.e. the clergy & religious.

Here, my psychology and sexuality come together. A good example: my dear Franciscan friend was very far from priestly ordination when I met him years ago. I had no problems or anxiety, even though I knew it would come eventually. As the time approached, however, I began to experience huge anxiety with regards to abandonment. I saw in him a father-figure, but also a brother-figure, and elevation to the priesthood seemed to take away the equality we had: it would leave a mark, a character, on him for all eternity - one I would never have. He would be numbered among the true Christians, the real ones, and I would remain one of the stupid, ignorant, adorably-naive laity out in the pews, pretending so hard to be Christians, but really just worthless in the Kingdom. This is tied up with homosexuality, I believe, even if it was not consciously obvious. All of that is about possession and restoration of the inner man, gone about in the wrong fashion.

Quote:I'm really glad I started this thread because I've discovered, from at least two homosexual posters, anyway, that there are people out there who see their lives as without meaning -- in essence, because they are homosexual and don't fit into the "EITHER/OR" scenario of MARRIAGE/RELIGIOUS LIFE. I did NOT expect to see such a thing and have learned how very deeply the pain can go for trad homosexuals. This is all eating at me, bothering me in a big way -- especially because I'm seeing some very bright, sensitive, and empathic people dissing themselves so HARSHLY. It's really painful to me to see (and makes me wish even more and more and MORE that I had the house and funds to start something to at least TRY to give these brothers and sisters -- and their straight counterparts -- a sense of purpose, DEEP fellowship, and MEANING.

Please forgive me for helping to incite such feelings. Don't beat yourself up too much, dear lady. I'm glad you've been taught surprising things which you didn't expect (a sign of Christ working, if there ever was one). To be sure, a trad life is difficult for an SSA-sufferer, if only because trad priests are often moralistic and condemnatory from the pulpit at Mass, frequently bringing up the homosexualist agenda or the radical atheistic liberalism that uses homosexuals. You begin to feel as if the priest has no idea, that he's just talking out of his backside based on abstractions, and it makes you feel hated and rejected by the Church. Since gays innately have a huge problem with rejection, this leads to rejection of traditionalism - often only because of one priest or two! I am sure there are many glorious trad priests who are saintly in warmth and in doctrine. I should also caveat that I am not even qualified to speak of this, except from sermons on the internet; I've never been a TLM, and my experience of it is limited to the famous SSPX Feast of the Sacred Heart Mass on YouTube. Forgive me if I have spoken inaccurately.

Your idea of a house/community is based on strong emotions and care for us, and it is beautiful, but not necessarily practical. Though many gays are sincere, being in the constant presence of other men - especially men they know are gay - would probably not help. You'd have to make sure every bedroom was locked or very distant from the others. There would have to be very strict rules, asceticism, prayer, fasting, and penance scheduled. It would have to be more rigorous than most Carthusian houses, because SSA people can be easily carried on whims of emotions, due to the psychological nature of the disorder and its roots in early childhood neglect and abuse. Of course, once the house was established as a place of genuine Catholicism and living of the beatitudes, only those serious about conversion and repentance would join.

"Courage" is the famous apostolate for supporting and even creating communities for gays, but it has become ambiguous as to its orthodoxy in some places. There are often Courage-like "GLBT" (sounds like a sandwich) ministries in Catholic churches led by active homosexuals, or even homosexuals who have been married by a Lutheran minister or other liberal heretic. That's the case with these two, for example, who I stumbled on: https://sites.google.com/site/johnandgregwedding/ "Ministers" of the gay ministry of some parish in California, planning to get married - and still posing, all pious, in the pews to show how they pray so much and are so Catholic. Lord have mercy! It's so sad. (Please pray for them and all the self-deceiving gays who want to 'follow Christ' but keep their passions on fire).

Quote:The purpose of ANYONE'S life -- whether married or ordained or religious! -- is to love God with all of one's mind, soul, strength, and to love one's neighbor as one loves oneself. Those are THE Two Great Commandments Jesus gave to us -- the two commandments that cover the whole of the law. That is WHY we are ALL here, no matter our station in life. And there are a million ways to live out those commandments without being a priest or a married person! Oh, man, if you knew how badly I want to grab you by the shoulders and shake you...

I think the worst temptation here is to believe that God does not love us. After all, He created us for loneliness, not ordination or marriage, and allows a completely disordered mindset and spirit to prevail in our thoughts and imaginations. It seems like a cruel joke quite a lot of the time, even if there are moments when God's love flashes like lightning in our lives. I believe the only real cure is to attend overwhelmingly powerful celebrations of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the sung Divine Office, and benediction. I know I'd probably have greater peace of heart as to my humanity and vocation, if there was a Mass with any meat or content in my life - if there was a life that meant something, within the Church - something to fight for and care about, instead of the Novus Ordo dribble that honestly inspires no loyalty or conviction.

Anyway, shake me all you want, ma'am. People have done it before. :) Of the Franciscans I mentioned, four are aware of my SSA and have tried to get me to look past it, metaphorically shaking me and slapping me around many times. They are absolutely saintly for dealing with my depression and almost endless self-hatred over my sexuality. It is simple, well-catechized Catholics who will be at the forefront of bringing gays into the fullness of Christ and His love.

Quote:First, do NOT be sorry for expressing your feelings. That is, in part, what this thread is FOR. These are the kinds of things I WANT to hear, that I WANT for homosexual trads to TALK ABOUT so that maybe they can be helped and prayed for, and so that any "toxic trad" reading over our shoulders might actually HEAR and LEARN that their sassy-ass talk of "sods" and "homos" refers to real live people with hearts and minds and souls, people who can be hurt.

Trads have been like this, yes. It's probably the besieged mindset, fighting against everything that does not seem to be trad. Many trads are justified in this, because what they know of gays is only from the popular media, which pretends to be so loving and liberal, yet it only covers gay stories that are lurid or perverse. A repentant gay man is not interesting... one who murdered his former lover in a fit of passion, or even raped a teenage boy, is much more "interesting". Trads get this vision from our despicable culture because that's all that's fed to them. In the same way, some might see all Protestants as Calvinists who believe in double-predestination and the total depravity of man, but that's only because they've never met with Arminianism or other forms of Protestantism. They come up with labels like "Prot" and "Proddie" just like "Bugger" or "fag": they cover a broad but entirely imagined caricature, not human beings.

May I just add my own objective classification, which seems to fit psychology of the gays I've met in real life, based on how they themselves might identify themselves, and proudly so?

For several years, I've subdivided this disorder into three major types, with their own sub-types. It begins from most-basic quality shared-by-all, to most-complex and shared-by-few:

H - "Homosexual"
G - "Gay"
F - "Fag"

H can be divided into H1 and H2:

H1: confused attraction. often in self-denial and can become homophobic out of anxiety.
H2: basic attraction. accepts that he has SSA. does not necessarily act on it.

G1: engaged attraction. accepts it, usually via pornography and impurity. may seek intercourse at clubs. doesn't care about the politics.
G2: accepted attraction. accepts it, identifies with it, and goes beyond impurity to actually seeking gay marriage. a political activist.

F1: flaunted attraction. flamboyant, effeminate, but often shy and mousey. may be comfortable with transvestism for a lark. interior decorator.
F2: obsessive attraction. cross-dresses, or engages in the furry subculture, or some other perversity beyond the basic lifestyle.

We must approach people where they are. The categories may be clinical, but I believe they are accurate.

Quote:Second, you seem like you may be suffering from some serious, clinical depression -- something I know about on a very intimate level. I hope you talk to your family doctor about this; there may very well be some chemical deficiency you're suffering from.

Third, no matter what -- chemical deficiencies or not -- DUDE! You are SO underestimating the power of the teacher, the artist, the scientist, etc. -- all of whom may not, in themselves, as per the nature of those callings, have a vocation to marriage or to the priesthood.

It seems to me, offhand and discerning in a TOTALLY cursory way, that what you need is friendship (along with the grace of the Sacraments, etc.). It sounds to me as if you're very lonely, and that you need to make a difference in someone's life and to KNOW that you do, to know that what you do matters, that someone "out there" appreciates you, knows who you are, and gives a damn about you. FWIW, you can PM me any time -- or, better, email me: tracy@fisheaters.com  I can at least hear you, truly listen to you, and do my best to let you know you are NOT alone in the world.

Thank you for your encouragement, sister in Christ. I know I've suffered from autism, social anxiety, and neurodevelopmental problems. It's okay. My family doctor is useless, and the specialists have all been at a loss to help. All the doctors and medicines in the world have done nothing. I begin to think that God wants me to carry a spiritual cross made entirely of thorns and nails, for the salvation of the world and my own very small soul.

Yes, I need friendship... specifically, loyal male friendship that overrides my unhealthy expectations and assumptions about manhood. Many gay men share this in common, as I've known from experience. Even the Franciscans who have been close to me for years now have been unable to convince me of their loyalty, however. All is betrayal and treachery... an impression of humanity I received when living in the chat-channels and gay-chat-world many years ago. They were all vindictive, atheistic, selfish people to a man. I don't know how to heal my past, so I best let Christ do it. Hopefully some day I'll find a real Mass to fill my emptiness - no longer the plaything of the 1960s generation - and be filled with true knowledge of the worship and love of God.

VERE PASSUM, IMMOLATUM IN CRUCE PRO HOMINAE.
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Re: The Experiences of Homosexual Trads - by Heorot - 02-27-2014, 08:32 AM



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