The GoreTex!
#17
(03-01-2014, 11:10 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote:
(03-01-2014, 09:51 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: Again, I wouldn't say that Mr. Voris "has not so much regard tor the truth" even "at times."

Actually, apart from the apparent motive for it, the manifesto itself declares that he is: It states that the truth of papal shortcomings should be hidden.

And, like I said, I disagree with that. No, on second thought, to be more clear, I don't find his own unwillingness to "go there" a necessarily bad thing at all, but I do disagree with his going after other people who do talk about papal shortcomings (again, assuming they're going about it with respect, humility, prudence, etc.). I can understand (um, by which, I see good reason, see the sense of) his not wanting to do that himself. Different apostolates have different purposes, and he seems to have discerned that the goal of his particular apostolate is to talk about the goings-on in the Church without risking undermining the faith of Catholics who might not be well-educated, who are prone to confusion, who don't understand the levels of the papal magisterium, etc. And to me, that's just fine. But what's not fine is his going after Messrs Matt, Verecchio, etc.


(03-01-2014, 11:10 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote:
Quote:But I do think that his going after Verecchio, et. al., is very uncool.  Like Austenbosten, I can totally understand Mr. Voris's decision to not want to talk about the Holy Father himself -- and I don't like disrespect shown toward the Holy Father anywhere, "disprespectful" criticism being totally different from respectful criticism or simply respectfully expressing confusion about or respectfully lamenting something he might do or say.

Voris' decision to refuse to criticize anything the holy father does is a preposterous position, actually.  Valid criticism of the pontiff goes back to St. Paul and is enshrined in sacred Scripture as a lesson for us - as many theologians, saints, and *popes* have pointed out.  Rebuke of superiors when they err publicly is ordained in canon law as well.

I don't think his decision is "preposterous," and the fact that it is, in fact, OK and has been done since the Gospels and epistles have been around, doesn't mean that that is Mr. Voris's particular calling -- especially if his true concern is (as I believe) for the souls of folks who are, um, intellectually limited, shall we say, and who leap from A to Z with faulty logic in between.

(03-01-2014, 11:10 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote: It goes without saying that disrespect for the purpose of the holy father or any other person is wrong.

Amen to that -- but it is pretty rampant in SOME trad circles. It makes sense for a sedevacantist to not have respect for (a proclaimed) Pope's office, but I've seen some serious disrespect, out and out venom, from non-sedes, and that sort of thing needs to be stopped.

(03-01-2014, 11:10 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote: People who think they are doing the Church, the faithful, or even the pontiff a favor by remaining silent in the face of clearly erroneous, un-Catholic statements and actions are sadly mistaken (but such is the nature of this crisis).  I like this quote from Bishop Melchior Cano, Theologian of the Council of Trent:

"Peter has no need for our lies or flattery.  Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the supreme pontiff are the very ones who do the most to undermine the authority of the Holy See - they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations."

I agree with the quote.

(03-01-2014, 11:10 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote: (I don't personally care for the phrase "I can understand..." as it really says nothing; it is entirely subjective.  What does it have to do with what's right and best what I can understand?  I can understand - to some extent - a number of bad things.  They are still bad.)

See above for how I use the phrase. But I see your point insofar as "understanding" in se doesn't make something right.

(03-01-2014, 11:10 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote:
Quote:But to go after folks who do decide to "go there" -- assuming they're doing so with respect, with humility, while giving the Holy Father the benefit of the doubt whenever possible, while not impugning motives, etc.  -- me no likey.

Going after such folks is exactly what Mr. Voris has decided to do.

It seems so, alas. And I dislike it.


(03-01-2014, 11:10 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote:
Quote:I like what Mr. Voris does, as far as he goes, and think his apostolate is a very needed one. I wish he hadn't done what he did with regard to the trads he went after. It's sad to me.

Frankly, I have thought for years that sometimes his criticism of bishops was *too* biting.  He often does not properly cite sources for what he asserts.  As it became increasingly obvious that every bishop save the Bishop of Rome was fair game for him, I began to lose interest in his work.  (If challenged I can't really offer specific support for this - it's just a general feeling that grew on me over time.)

I think the modern Catholic's sense of papalotry is entirely a *making* of this crisis.  Good Catholics in previous times understood perfectly well that pointing out un-Catholic behavior of *any* prelate is entirely fair-game.  It is more than "fair" - it is necessary for the good of the Church and her souls.

It is only because the post-conciliar popes have embraced novelty after novelty that criticism towards them became so frequent and so intense, and the reaction of the neo-Catholic is - papalotry.

I think papolatry has played a big role in all this for sure, and I do think that Mr. Voris's unwillingness to go there could help that sort of thinking along. On the other hand, though, I do think it's reasonable to think that "going there" can easily undermine the faith of the type of Catholic I've described above -- which means most Catholics. I disagree with that conclusion, but don't find it irrational or a sign of wussiness.


(03-01-2014, 11:10 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote:
Quote:I hope folks here don't "take sides" and decide to "shun" one group or the other, or to operate with the gang-banging mentality of "he's one of THEM" or "they're some of THOSE." There's room for Mr. Voris's work and Verecchio's work and and Matt's work and and and... There's room enough for all of us -- even if some of us don't think there is and might cut people off.

I'd say it's best for everyone to strive for perfection.

Well, that goes without saying. But our striving for perfection is between ourselves, our priests, our family/close friends, and God Himself. And it's the same with Mr. Voris, and Mr. Verecchio, and Mr. Matt, and Mr. Ferrara, and everyone else on earth. IOW, our striving for perfection doesn't (necessarily) mean we should shun people who don't do things the way we ourselves would do them.

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Messages In This Thread
The GoreTex! - by The Catholic Thinker - 03-01-2014, 06:27 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by The Catholic Thinker - 03-01-2014, 06:59 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by Dmorgan - 03-01-2014, 08:12 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by austenbosten - 03-01-2014, 08:19 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by Dmorgan - 03-01-2014, 09:21 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by The Catholic Thinker - 03-01-2014, 09:27 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by austenbosten - 03-01-2014, 09:39 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by VoxClamantis - 03-01-2014, 09:51 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by Qoheleth - 03-01-2014, 10:09 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by austenbosten - 03-01-2014, 10:20 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by VoxClamantis - 03-01-2014, 10:22 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by formerbuddhist - 03-01-2014, 10:22 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by The Catholic Thinker - 03-01-2014, 11:10 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by VoxClamantis - 03-01-2014, 11:18 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by formerbuddhist - 03-01-2014, 11:35 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by The Catholic Thinker - 03-01-2014, 11:48 PM
Re: The GoreTex! - by VoxClamantis - 03-02-2014, 12:23 AM
Re: The GoreTex! - by VoxClamantis - 03-02-2014, 12:33 AM
Re: The GoreTex! - by austenbosten - 03-02-2014, 12:40 AM
Re: The GoreTex! - by VoxClamantis - 03-02-2014, 01:01 AM



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