"Who am I to judge?" redux
#11
(03-15-2014, 11:48 AM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote: Who proudly declares their disorders in public, to the world, with the expectation of praise?

You're assuming they're "expecting praise." I think it has to do with just being up-front. I "came out" as bipolar on this forum and didn't expect praise; it was relevant to a topic I was posting about, and people were very kind.

Quote: I have all kinds of weaknesses and disorders I do not expect praise for.

Exceptions prove the rule, it is said.  Exceptions are not relevant to the de-facto reality of what "coming out" means to the world.

It is said, but logically, a counter example proves that the statement "X always means Y" is wrong when there is an example of X meaning Z.

Quote: At the very least - as we see so often - the complete failure to even make any attempt to give such comments the very careful qualification they call for is a cause for scandal.

I think Dolan put in some qualification by saying that the same Bible that speaks of chastity speaks of not judging others' souls. IOW, he valued chastity even as he valued someone's being honest about his disorders.

Quote: Do you honestly believe that in that interview Cardinal Dolan was more interested in preaching truth than in the good reputation of himself and the Church in today's world?

I am assuming the best and take his words for what they are, same as with Pope Francis's "Who am I to judge?" statement. I know that I am a Catholic -- a trad one at that -- and have bringing folks to the Church as my mission, know that acting on homosexual desires is wrong and say so, etc., and I am fine with people coming out, and I'd guess I'm not the only Catholic in the world who doesn't see any conflict with being interested in preaching the Truth and being fine with someone's coming out.

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#12
(03-15-2014, 11:57 AM)Heorot Wrote: What Dolan and others are doing here is applauding the SECULAR man's coming-out (which is currently intrinsically tied to acceptance of the act of gay sex), not the CATHOLIC man's coming-out. Essential, essential, essential distinctions.

Though our Faith is the True Faith, there are evangelicals and other types of Christians out there who could well be homosexual and also wanting to live up to their own belief systems. Same with non-Christian religions (most of which frown on acting on homosexual desires).

But I am so glad you're coming out and wanting to start a Courage group!!! Bravo to you on wanting to help homosexuals stay chaste, IN the Church, close to Jesus! I wish you the GREATEST of success!
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#13
(03-15-2014, 11:57 AM)Heorot Wrote: Just FYI, I intend to "come out" in my parish starting a chapter of "Courage" - i.e. a group for SSA-afflicted people who wish to be faithful to the tradition, magisterium, scriptures, and faith of the whole Church. I expect maybe 2 or 3 people at most, either because most SSA people don't care what the Church teaches, or they get the wrong impression. This comes from words like "Who am I to judge?" and such ambiguous statements.

What Dolan and others are doing here is applauding the SECULAR man's coming-out (which is currently intrinsically tied to acceptance of the act of gay sex), not the CATHOLIC man's coming-out. Essential, essential, essential distinctions.

Were "coming out" associated with what it should be associated with - i.e. confessing a disordered passion, and asking for help and prayers from the Church - then it would be fine. What we need to do now is cease the whining and the back-and-forth arguments, and start encouraging SSA-people to "come out", while explicitly confessing celibacy, chastity, fidelity to the Church, and a pledge to become fully-mature, if it is possible for them.

Once the association between "gay & Catholic" and "faithful & Catholic" and "chaste & Catholic" has been established firmly, "coming out" won't be associated with public acceptance of sodomy anymore... at least not in the Church itself.

I admit this clearly: I do believe that the "Who am I to judge?" statement, taken almost as a magisterial infallible declaration by the press, has been the cause of this trouble. It will be the cause of more trouble. Francis does not know how to speak in public.

Perfect post.
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#14
(03-15-2014, 11:33 AM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote: Vox, I basically disagree with your approach to homosexuality, for reasons expressed in a couple other long threads (by others more than myself).

"Coming out" means declaring same-sex-attraction AND the intent to act on it.  "Coming out" proudly is a declaration to the world that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality - that is, how the world defines "homosexuality" which absolutely includes living as a homosexual.  That's simply what "coming out" means, to virtually everyone.  To the secularists, to the liberals, to the "conservatives", and to traditional Catholics as well.  To the world.  That is reality.

That's what this guy meant when he made his announcement, and that's what Dolan praised.  Virtually everyone in the world sees it that way, just as they see Francis' "Who am I to judge?" as an implicit endorsement of homosexual behavior, to at least some extent, on some level.  (Everyone except neo-Catholic apologist spin-doctors struck blind with pollyannaism, that is.) 

Dolan knows this, which is why, I think, he looked like he was ashamed of himself while he was speaking.  I'll tell you what I didn't see there: the glow of the Holy Spirit that radiates from someone speaking truth

. . .


De-facto realities matter.  This is a practical matter we're talking about.

If I were wrong about the fact that these senior churchmen are pandering to the world, and/or engulfed by diabolical disorientation, then this is what we would have seen: as soon as the world began declaring that (in the first case) the pope is no longer "judging" homosexual behavior, we'd have seen a response from the Vatican that would have shook the world.  These prelates, horrified that the world was now spreading the lie that grave sins are no longer condemned as grave sins, would have been shouting from the rooftops regarding the horrors of mortal sin and of Hell.

Instead, we heard maybe a couple little bleats long after the fact, as the party continues.

Dolan is making new homosexuals.  He is convincing young men struggling with SSA to let down their guard.  If it's Ok to proudly declare SSA, acting on SSA seems less evil.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required (cf. St. Luke 12:48). 

The Cardinal knows better and his  Bravo ! is a disgrace to the Church, his office, the millions of Catholics under his care, and those who, (as was pointed out above) will take this as an endorsement of sodomy or an active SSA lifestyle.
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#15

If people take what he said as an endorsement for sodomy or "an active SSA lifestyle," then they are very much reading into what he actually said. He spoke clearly of chastity.

I think people lots of times see what they want to see. Progressives want to see permission for libertinism; some trads want to see a Bishop acting like a progressive so they can get angry. It's sad.



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#16
The problem as i see it is a failure to communicate on the Part of people like Dolan or Pope Francis. As far as this forum is concerned  people try to articulate clearly what they think they have heard said on either side of  what was  actually  said by whoever gave the initial statement.  So both parties can only second guess what was  really meant at the time of the original "communication".  If the Pope and Cardinal Dolan and others would put half the effort into explaining  what they mean WHEN THEY OPEN THEIR MOUTHS IN PUBLIC as people on this blog and elsewhere try to interpret what was actually said  we all would be better served on what our response should be to what was said.  BUT.... this isn't likely to happen anytime soon..... so on with the CONFUSION  :duel:

hmmm where did i leave that half full glass of beer......
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#17
(03-15-2014, 05:19 PM)Qoheleth Wrote: The problem as i see it is a failure to communicate on the Part of people like Dolan or Pope Francis. As far as this forum is concerned  people try to articulate clearly what they think they have heard said on either side of  what was  actually  said by whoever gave the initial statement.  So both parties can only second guess what was  really meant at the time of the original "communication".  If the Pope and Cardinal Dolan and others would put half the effort into explaining  what they mean WHEN THEY OPEN THEIR MOUTHS IN PUBLIC as people on this blog and elsewhere try to interpret what was actually said  we all would be better served on what our response should be to what was said.  BUT.... this isn't likely to happen anytime soon..... so on with the CONFUSION  :duel:

hmmm where did i leave that half full glass of beer......

Dolan's interview was linked to (the video itself, I mean).

But I definitely agree with the thrust of your post -- that people often times get bent out of shape before actually knowing what the deal is.

I, also, think it'd be great if the Holy Father and Dolan and everyone else were even more clear about what they're saying -- and NOT saying. But still, what Dolan actually said included his expressing the value of chastity. And I do believe that folks hear what they want to hear (generally speaking). Progressives want to hear progressivism; some trads want to hear things to get riled up over.


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#18
I honestly think that if that was all his eminence timothy cardinal dolan had to say, and that was really and truly his message on the subject in it's entirety, then it's not enough. I think he needed to qualify his statement by saying "I applaud this man for his courage and also I pray for his chastity." But he didn't because he doesn't want to take it on the chin and be a man. He wants to be popular and he wants people to like him. He doesn't want to be labeled as a "hater", which would inevitably happen. The New York Times and all the others would have a picnic with that.

I want the best for Cardinal Dolan, I want him to get to heaven and hear the words, "Well done good and faithful servant", but you know what, that's not going to happen via some popularity contest. These days our Catholic leaders who speak the truth are going to be dragged through the mud and it's not going to be a happy thing. Things are getting down to the black and white pretty much these days. You take God's way or the world's and there's not much left that's in between now is there?
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#19
(03-15-2014, 05:51 PM)Jacafamala Wrote: I honestly think that if that was all his eminence timothy cardinal dolan had to say, and that was really and truly his message on the subject in it's entirety, then it's not enough. I think he needed to qualify his statement by saying "I applaud this man for his courage and also I pray for his chastity." But he didn't because he doesn't want to take it on the chin and be a man. He wants to be popular and he wants people to like him. He doesn't want to be labeled as a "hater", which would inevitably happen. The New York Times and all the others would have a picnic with that.

I want the best for Cardinal Dolan, I want him to get to heaven and hear the words, "Well done good and faithful servant", but you know what, that's not going to happen via some popularity contest. These days our Catholic leaders who speak the truth are going to be dragged through the mud and it's not going to be a happy thing. Things are getting down to the black and white pretty much these days. You take God's way or the world's and there's not much left that's in between now is there?

"I applaud this man for his courage and also I pray for his chastity" would definitely have been a MUCH better way of both indicating that being a homosexual IN ITSELF is NOT a sin, recognizing that it takes courage to come out, AND to be clear that acting on homosexual sexual desires is a sin. I wish he had put it that way. Alas.

I'm still not cozy with the idea of guessing at Cardinal Dolan's motives, but most definitely agree with Jacafamala that if he'd said it they way she just said it, a lot of problems, "confusion" (and real confusion), and the felt need for progressives to gloat and for trads to either worry or get angry would've been obviated.
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#20
(03-15-2014, 06:19 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(03-15-2014, 05:51 PM)Jacafamala Wrote: I honestly think that if that was all his eminence timothy cardinal dolan had to say, and that was really and truly his message on the subject in it's entirety, then it's not enough. I think he needed to qualify his statement by saying "I applaud this man for his courage and also I pray for his chastity." But he didn't because he doesn't want to take it on the chin and be a man. He wants to be popular and he wants people to like him. He doesn't want to be labeled as a "hater", which would inevitably happen. The New York Times and all the others would have a picnic with that.

I want the best for Cardinal Dolan, I want him to get to heaven and hear the words, "Well done good and faithful servant", but you know what, that's not going to happen via some popularity contest. These days our Catholic leaders who speak the truth are going to be dragged through the mud and it's not going to be a happy thing. Things are getting down to the black and white pretty much these days. You take God's way or the world's and there's not much left that's in between now is there?

"I applaud this man for his courage and also I pray for his chastity" would definitely have been a MUCH better way of both indicating that being a homosexual IN ITSELF is NOT a sin, recognizing that it takes courage to come out, AND to be clear that acting on homosexual sexual desires is a sin. I wish he had put it that way. Alas.

I'm still not cozy with the idea of guessing at Cardinal Dolan's motives, but most definitely agree with Jacafamala that if he'd said it they way she just said it, a lot of problems, "confusion" (and real confusion), and the felt need for progressives to gloat and for trads to either worry or get angry would've been obviated.

Mea culpa, I am so cynical when it comes to this sort of thing. Would that it weren't so....
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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