I don't understand the Orthodox schismatics.
#31
And this indeed precisely the main rational reason I am moving as we speak from Greek Orthodoxy to Roman Catholicism.
 
Seems to me I've heard this somewhere before: "I believe... in one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church..."
 
Peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you...
 
~     NewCatholic
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#32
I almost converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, but there were a couple of things which stopped me. The main one was the "aerial toll-house" theory, where, after death, your soul passes through 20 toll-houses where it will be judged by demons. If the demons find more bad deeds than good deeds, or if they find a sin you haven't confessed to your (Orthodox) priest, then they will take your soul into hell. So demons are your judge now, not Christ, as Scripture says. The Orthodox light candles for the dead, even though they have no belief in purgatory and don't even know what happens after death until the Last Judgement.

The main reason I didn't become Orthodox was that it is so different from Catholicism. The hymns are totally different, and they don't have Christmas carols, which I love. There is no Rosary. All the prayers are different. Eventually, I just didn't think I would be happy in the Orthodox Church, and decided to remain in the Catholic Church.

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#33
michaeorapronobis Wrote:I almost converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, but there were a couple of things which stopped me. The main one was the "aerial toll-house" theory, where, after death, your soul passes through 20 toll-houses where it will be judged by demons. If the demons find more bad deeds than good deeds, or if they find a sin you haven't confessed to your (Orthodox) priest, then they will take your soul into hell. So demons are your judge now, not Christ, as Scripture says.
I'd just like to point out that it is a theory that has a large ammount of very healthy criticism to it. Smile Myself, I do not believe in it - and besides, I noticed that some Catholics believe in so-called 'Limbo' where deceased unbaptized babies dwell - imaginary concept.

michaeorapronobis Wrote: The Orthodox light candles for the dead, even though they have no belief in purgatory and don't even know what happens after death until the Last Judgement.
It is not that we don't know, it is that we can't know. The reason behind this is that we simply cannot know what happens in spiritual world. We have a lot of visions of Saints, but they're all private revelations, sometimes differing from each other. We KNOW that our candles help our deceased, and we're perfectly fine with it - we don't light candles because we are absolutely sure that they will suffer in fire less. We do not know how it helps them. Does it bring them comfort? Forgivness of sins? Consolation? Ease of sufferings or increase in blessedness? All of it? We cannot say with certainty, only that we must pray for them and they recieve some form of help through our prayers.

michaeorapronobis Wrote:There is no Rosary.
Actually, there is Smile Although not in the form used by Catholics. Orthodox use a slightly different version of Ave Maria ("O Virgin Theotokos, rejoice, blessed Mary, the Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the Fruit of your womb, for you gave birth to the Savior of our souls"). St. Seraphim of Sarov gave a special prayer rule to his spiritual children, which included saying 150 "O Virgin Theotokos"es, and one "Our Father" on every 10 VT prayers. After "Our Father" we say "Open to us the doors of thy loving compassion" prayer. Some Orthodox pray this rule on a rosary, but we generally don't announce mysteries or state intentions (although Western Rite Orthodox may do so, depending on their pervious tradition). However, St. Seraphim's prayer rule never became widespread as rosary because:
1. Revelations in Orthodoxy are generally private. You'll never see God or Saint appearing to a Saint and telling him/her to spread the important message across the world. (As opposed to Dominic and st. Faustina, for example).
2. Orthodox devotions rarely (if ever) have attached promises (most of which we see as scandalous) or indulgences/
3. Most important reason: Jesus prayer is seen as peak of prayer in Eastern Orthodoxy, the ultimate prayer which 'has its all.' It can more or less replace any prayer.

And no Orthodox would give a damn if you sung Christmas carols. Big Grin
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#34
Silentchapel Wrote:I'd just like to point out that it is a theory that has a large ammount of very healthy criticism to it. Smile Myself, I do not believe in it - and besides, I noticed that some Catholics believe in so-called 'Limbo' where deceased unbaptized babies dwell - imaginary concept.

I would do well not to say the Limbo concept is imaginary definitely. I believe in it as the outer fringe of Hell, where one can't see God but still live in natural happiness. Of course, it isn't defined, so it isn't essential yet.

St Gregory Nazianzus:

Quote:It will happen, I believe . . . that those last mentioned [infants dying without baptism] will neither be admitted by the just judge to the glory of Heaven nor condemned to suffer punishment, since, though unsealed [by baptism], they are not wicked. . . . For from the fact that one does not merit punishment it does not follow that one is worthy of being honored, any more than it follows that one who is not worthy of a certain honor deserves on that account to be punished. [Orat., xl, 23]
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#35
Someone posted that a question by an Orthodox priest made them convert to Catholicism.

Quote:What is the final authority?  A council of Bishops of the Orthodox Church.

Who can bring about a Council?  The Emperor.

There's no Emperor anymore, hence no council, hence no final authority.

Unless I missed something the poster said.  Was it Jovan?  Or was it someone else?
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#36
CampeadorShin Wrote:Someone posted that a question by an Orthodox priest made them convert to Catholicism.

Quote:What is the final authority? A council of Bishops of the Orthodox Church.

Who can bring about a Council? The Emperor.

There's no Emperor anymore, hence no council, hence no final authority.

Unless I missed something the poster said. Was it Jovan? Or was it someone else?
You're forgetting that in Orthodoxy, Emperor is not equal to the Pope, therefore if there is no Emperor it does NOT mean that there is no "final authority."
And besides, the privilege of convoking the Ecumenical Councils now falls on Ecumenical Patriarch. And we're in process of preparing for one too, which will deal with some extremly important issues. Patriarch of Serbia has the duty to deal with calendar problems... Jurisdictational chaos and ecumenism will also be addressed. Apostles' Fast will probably be shortened for a week.
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#37
CampeadorShin Wrote:Someone posted that a question by an Orthodox priest made them convert to Catholicism.

Quote:What is the final authority?  A council of Bishops of the Orthodox Church.

Who can bring about a Council?  The Emperor.

There's no Emperor anymore, hence no council, hence no final authority.

Unless I missed something the poster said.  Was it Jovan?  Or was it someone else?
  Actually, Campy, it was a Catholic priest who asked the question! But, yes, it was me.
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#38
Silentchapel Wrote:And no Orthodox would give a damn if you sung Christmas carols. Big Grin

I know but they're not part of the Orthodox tradition like they are here. They are generally sung in the Church before Midnight Mass on Christmas Day.

Quote:Actually, there is [Image: smile.gif] Although not in the form used by Catholics. Orthodox use a slightly different version of Ave Maria ("O Virgin Theotokos, rejoice, blessed Mary, the Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the Fruit of your womb, for you gave birth to the Savior of our souls"). St. Seraphim of Sarov gave a special prayer rule to his spiritual children, which included saying 150 "O Virgin Theotokos"es, and one "Our Father" on every 10 VT prayers. After "Our Father" we say "Open to us the doors of thy loving compassion" prayer. Some Orthodox pray this rule on a rosary, but we generally don't announce mysteries or state intentions (although Western Rite Orthodox may do so, depending on their pervious tradition)

I knew about the Orthodox Hail Mary (our local Orthodox priest Fr. Ilyan told me) but I had no idea it was recited like this.

Quote:1. Revelations in Orthodoxy are generally private. You'll never see God or Saint appearing to a Saint and telling him/her to spread the important message across the world. (As opposed to Dominic and st. Faustina, for example).

Why is this? If it is from God, and it is good, why not spread the message to everybody so that they can experience God's grace too.

Quote:You're forgetting that in Orthodoxy, Emperor is not equal to the Pope, therefore if there is no Emperor it does NOT mean that there is no "final authority."

The Emperor (by this I presume you mean Holy Roman Emperor) was a civil authority, not a religious one, but he could bring about an Ecumenical Council which was a religious authority. I'm sure Campy didn't mean that the Emperor was the final authority, in effect, an Orthodox Pope.

Quote:And besides, the privilege of convoking the Ecumenical Councils now falls on Ecumenical Patriarch.

What authority changed this? I can't see the Emperor giving up his power like that, so I doubt he would have called an Ecumenical Council to make that rule. Therefore, if there was no Emperor, there would be no-one to call an Ecumenical Council to decree that the Ecumenical Patriarch could call an Ecumenical Council. Unless the Empire was destroyed right in the middle of an Ecumenical Council.
Or did the Ecumenical Patriarch himself declare that he could now call Ecumenical Councils?
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#39
michaeorapronobis Wrote:
Silentchapel Wrote:And besides, the privilege of convoking the Ecumenical Councils now falls on Ecumenical Patriarch.

What authority changed this? I can't see the Emperor giving up his power like that, so I doubt he would have called an Ecumenical Council to make that rule. Therefore, if there was no Emperor, there would be no-one to call an Ecumenical Council to decree that the Ecumenical Patriarch could call an Ecumenical Council. Unless the Empire was destroyed right in the middle of an Ecumenical Council.
Or did the Ecumenical Patriarch himself declare that he could now call Ecumenical Councils?
  Excellent point, michae! I had intended to ask it myself. When I was still an Orthodox, over twenty five years ago, the Eastern Churches had been discussing for about 50 or 75 years how to get around this little problem.
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#40
Quote:Why is this? If it is from God, and it is good, why not spread the message to everybody so that they can experience God's grace too.
Well, it's quite simple. You experience God's grace with prayer, Holy Mysteries and so on and so forth. Is grace bestowed by a certain devotion "stronger" than the one bestowed by another devotion? It isn't. There are no different kinds of grace - if someone perfers saying 150 Virgin Theotokoses instead of reading the akathist to the Theotokos, he's more than welcome to do so. Myself, I really like the canon to All Saints and akathist for the repose of the departed. I do not consider akathist to Lord Jesus Christ or to the Theotokos to be "more powerful" or more "grace giving". People experience grace the split second they enter the church, when they pray, when they're baptized. A new devotion doesn't mean that they'll experience some kind of 'new' grace - just that they can experience it in a way that is more suitable for them. That is the reason why St. Seraphim's rule didn't became as widespread as the rosary - majority of the Orthodox simply perfer other means of prayer, although I've heard that novices on Mt. Athos have to say St. Seraphim's rule... Dunno if it's true.

Quote:What authority changed this? I can't see the Emperor giving up his power like that, so I doubt he would have called an Ecumenical Council to make that rule. Therefore, if there was no Emperor, there would be no-one to call an Ecumenical Council to decree that the Ecumenical Patriarch could call an Ecumenical Council. Unless the Empire was destroyed right in the middle of an Ecumenical Council.
Or did the Ecumenical Patriarch himself declare that he could now call Ecumenical Councils?
Actually, the power to convoke Ecumenical Councils is more the matter of consensus among different Orthodox jurisdictions. What I was aiming for is that Ecumenical Patriarch is more of a formal figure to convoke it. And as mentioned before, our 8th Council is being prepared.

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