Are There Really More Graces at the Traditional Latin Mass???
#11
(04-11-2014, 12:50 PM)rbjmartin Wrote: The very fact that you would attempt a summary judgment of an entire population (despite your nuanced statement) reflects poorly on you.

Forgive me brother, but it's an issue that bothers me. It may just be my immediate area, or perhaps my current spiritual state is just a pit stop before the next move Ill have to make.
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#12
I was always taught that grace depends on the mode of the receiver. The straight answer would seem that more graces come from the Mass that is more apt to lift one's mind and heart toward God. Most people here would say that's the Traditional Latin Mass. Thing is, we humans tend to put barriers between ourselves and God. For some, Latin is a barrier. The priest whispering in an inaudible voice might be a barrier. For others, hootenanny music and felt banners are a barrier. But God is still the official grace-giver and heart-reader. God can still see the soul who seeks him and God will dispense his graces and no barriers, not of language or of silence or grilles or even bad liturgy, can stop it. 

As for there being more graces due to the number of genuflections, bowings, sign of the crosses, etc.. that comes across as superstition to me.
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#13
(04-11-2014, 12:58 PM)mortify Wrote:
(04-11-2014, 12:50 PM)rbjmartin Wrote: The very fact that you would attempt a summary judgment of an entire population (despite your nuanced statement) reflects poorly on you.

Forgive me brother, but it's an issue that bothers me. It may just be my immediate area, or perhaps my current spiritual state is just a pit stop before the next move Ill have to make.

I think I get what your saying Mortify. I didn't get that you were judging an entire group and its not just your area. I'm a cradle Catholic who just started attending the TLM a couple of years ago. My hope was to find people at the TLM I attend to help me learn more but sadly the majority of the people I run into have been very negative to me. I have even gotten dirty looks in the church entrance before Mass. I'm not saying all are this way but a large number have been to my surprise....its very sad to me, if anyone ever came to me for questions or help I'd be elated to help them. It almost feels to me if you are not a long term member there your looked at with disdain. When I go there now I just keep to myself and don't ask any questions or dialog to much
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#14
There are lots of people who are covered under the "trad" umbrella.  Some people you run into will not be friendly to you because you are an outsider.  Some will shun you because you aren't as "holy" as they think you should be.  Others will ignore you, not because they are suspicious of you or don't like you; rather they are focusing on praying and that is the only thing on their mind. And still others will take to you because they want to share the love of Christ with you and have a genuine love for neighbor. 

We are all at different levels in our spiritual development and that manifests itself in our dealings with others.  As an Eastern Catholic, the first several times I visited my Byzantine parish I was surprised at how many people stayed after the Divine Liturgy and attended the social hour.  It took awhile for my wife & I to start attending the social hour, but that has been a great grace in our life.  Take care of your spiritual needs first and the rest will fall into place.
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#15
(04-11-2014, 01:18 PM)John64 Wrote:
(04-11-2014, 12:58 PM)mortify Wrote:
(04-11-2014, 12:50 PM)rbjmartin Wrote: The very fact that you would attempt a summary judgment of an entire population (despite your nuanced statement) reflects poorly on you.

Forgive me brother, but it's an issue that bothers me. It may just be my immediate area, or perhaps my current spiritual state is just a pit stop before the next move Ill have to make.

I think I get what your saying Mortify. I didn't get that you were judging an entire group and its not just your area. I'm a cradle Catholic who just started attending the TLM a couple of years ago. My hope was to find people at the TLM I attend to help me learn more but sadly the majority of the people I run into have been very negative to me. I have even gotten dirty looks in the church entrance before Mass. I'm not saying all are this way but a large number have been to my surprise....its very sad to me, if anyone ever came to me for questions or help I'd be elated to help them. It almost feels to me if you are not a long term member there your looked at with disdain. When I go there now I just keep to myself and don't ask any questions or dialog to much

I would say human judgment is far too limited to paint any sort of comprehensive, objective picture of trads as a population. Contrary to your experience, my experience with trads has always been impressive, with the majority being very devout, committed, and self-sacrificing Catholics. The fact that such a high proportion of them seek total commitment to God via vocations to priesthood or religious life speaks to this, in my opinion. Yes, there will be vocal "bad seeds" occasionally, but it has not been my experience (in my 12 years attending Latin Masses exclusively and gaining international exposure to trad communities along the way) that they make up the majority or even a significant percentage.

Something else you might consider...perhaps there is, indeed, a high proportion of great sinners among Latin Mass goers. But maybe that is the case because they recognize their great need of God's grace, and they are going where they find it in greater abundance. I sometimes tell people that I am not holy enough to go to the Novus Ordo. I am far too easily distracted, too easily swayed by the externals of Novus Ordo liturgies that lead my mind to mundane thoughts. I need the Latin Mass precisely because I am a great sinner.
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