Tradition is Winning
#11
A big problem I notice is for those of us who are new to the TLM and want to learn more is that where I attend the TLM I have gotten cold stares and dirty looks and cold responses to questions, even the priest I talked to seemed unfriendly. If it weren't for this site I'd still have a lot of questions. I think there are some out there that think its an exclusive club only and won't help anybody that is new. If it were me I'd go out of my way to help anybody new out.  To me me the TLM is for rich or poor, blue collar or white collar, educated and uneducated. I think its really sad that this happens but it does. This needs to be fixed for memberships to grow. It didn't stop me but some would be really turned off. The NO parish I go to when I can't get there to is way more freindly and open to strangers. I would like to add that I'm not judging all Trads to be this way but I've run into a lot who are.
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#12
(04-13-2014, 06:46 PM)John64 Wrote: A big problem I notice is for those of us who are new to the TLM and want to learn more is that where I attend the TLM I have gotten cold stares and dirty looks and cold responses to questions, even the priest I talked to seemed unfriendly. If it weren't for this site I'd still have a lot of questions. I think there are some out there that think its an exclusive club only and won't help anybody that is new. If it were me I'd go out of my way to help anybody new out.  To me me the TLM is for rich or poor, blue collar or white collar, educated and uneducated. I think its really sad that this happens but it does. This needs to be fixed for memberships to grow. It didn't stop me but some would be really turned off. The NO parish I go to when I can't get there to is way more freindly and open to strangers. I would like to add that I'm not judging all Trads to be this way but I've run into a lot who are.

"[ T ]he TLM is for rich or poor, blue collar or white collar, educated and uneducated" -- amen, brother. And for white people, black people, Asian people, homosexual people, high school drop-outs, folks with doctorates, single mothers, prostitutes -- everyone is called, and any trad who thinks otherwise, who isn't welcoming (or, if he's shy, isn't at least neutral in his demeanor toward others) is doing Christ Himself a great disservice. No, that person is wounding His very Heart

What you've experienced is, I think, relatively rare "in real life" (at least I pray so!), but I know that online some -- too many -- trads can come off like big jerks.  And that is one thing I am VERY out to change -- by posting about that problem and by having stuff like this on the FE site itself:

Toxic Trads:
http://www.fisheaters.com/abouttheforum.html#radtrad

Conversion of the Heart:
http://www.fisheaters.com/conversionoftheheart.html

Whatever you do, pleeeeeeeeeeease don't let the bastards get you down. Be there for Christ in spite of some of those who claim to follow Him but don't let it show in their lives. I imagine you know that the traditional form of worship is, in se, more reverent, better in terms of catechesis, and, because of all the prayers left out of the NO, undoubtedly more pleasing to God. So think of Him during all these hardships you're having with cold, steely-eyed pew-mates.

Further, BE the change you want to see. If you want a friendly, warm parish, BE the person who is friendly and warm to others. I know it's harder to do that if you're "the new guy there," but do it anyway if it is at all possible for you emotionally. LEAD. Take it upon yourself to set an example! "Ask not what your parish can do for you; ask what you can do for your parish!" LOL  Ha, I laugh, but am actually very serious. Sometimes it just takes someone to break the ice, to knock down a few barriers, to do things to change the "tone" of a place.

In the meanwhile, ask anything you want here and we'll try to get you answers! That's part of what this place is for :)

I'm curious about what sort of TLM you attend. Is it diocesan, FSSP, ICK, SSPX, sede...?

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#13
One thing I remember that Tim said (may he rest in peace) and its something that has really stuck with me, is the Church seems divided, the NO's has the charity, and the TLM's have the rules and faith. Its' really sad that it's that way, I just wonder why, even VII called for Latin to be retained in the Liturgy,  as far as I've read, I've not seen anything in VII thats contrary to the faith, if its read in the light of tradition. I just wonder why...


Pax
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#14
(04-13-2014, 07:47 PM)CatholicSteve21 Wrote: One thing I remember that Tim said (may he rest in peace) and its something that has really stuck with me, is the Church seems divided, the NO's has the charity, and the TLM's have the rules and faith. Its' really sad that it's that way, I just wonder why, even VII called for Latin to be retained in the Liturgy,  as far as I've read, I've not seen anything in VII thats contrary to the faith, if its read in the light of tradition. I just wonder why...


Pax

You want to hear the scary part? Charity is "the better part." We trads are right in believing what we believe, in wanting a restoration of the traditional sacramental rites and ancient devotions, wanting the traditional teachings of the Church handed down intact, etc., but if we are 100% right about it and don't have charity, we're going to Hell in spite of our brilliant minds.

My take on the "toxic trad" phenomenon, which is what we're talking about here, is that traditional Catholicism attracts intellectuals. Unless a person is born into it or is aesthetically sensitive, what brings people to Tradition is a consciousness of what's been going on since the Council, what's been lost, how authentic teaching has been twisted. And becoming conscious of all that requires some modicum of intelligence and curiosity. But there's a relatively big sub-set of the "intellectual type" who are flat out emotionally retarded, to be blunt about it. They're like this high IQ kid I remember seeing on the old Johnny Carson show when I was a kid myself -- some girl who did something unusual, like maybe graduating from college at age 13 or whatever:  she scoffed at the idea of going to her graduation ceremony because it was a ridiculous thing that would entail her wearing a cardboard hat. They're the type who break things down in a Spockian way without the Spockian charm or sense of humor and warmth we all know is lurking underneath that Vulcan exterior. That girl, for ex., whether she realized it or not, just basically called all her classmates ridiculous fools. And she likely had no idea that she did so. She was unable to see the importance of such (albeit secular) ritual in spite of the, yes, cardboard hats. She was robotic. And there's a lot of that "roboticism" (relatively speaking) in the trad world because of the fact that Tradition is now something one, generally speaking, has to have some sort of intellect to even know exists.  Back in the day when Tradition just was and everyone was on the same page, that sort of intellectual coldness wasn't what typified the folks in the pews. Back in the day, the hairdressers, plumbers, doctors, lawyers, and hod-carriers all had the same Mass, the same teachings, and there was no need for anyone to go to some little cranny of the world to find the Truth, there was no great Truth out there that was being kept away from them  -- and, so, there was nothing anyone had to "lord" over another. Modern trads need to remember that fact.

Throw in an over-reaction to the nasty ugliness of the modern world, resulting in anger and bitterness, and throw in backlashing against radical feminism by displacing the rage onto "women," and then add a twist of anger at what the homosexualist activists are doing getting morphed into talking smack about all homosexuals ("sods," etc.), and you get -- the classic Toxic Trad.

They need a conversion of the heart, to not treat the Faith like a philosophy only they are brilliant enough to have discovered. They're sort of "gnostic" in that sense sometimes (using that term very loosely). I'll fight that stuff as long as this site's up.

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#15
PrairieMom Wrote:"LOL, I'm not that old (I'm 36), but I'm what you call a "stealth trad" too, or at least I'm trying to be. I think you're right on the money that it's largely due to not wanting to "rock the boat". There's a lot of politics in parishes, and no one wants to be on the wrong side of the majority if they can help it"

Parish politics are the worst, one of the thing many orders are trying to do is "brand" themselves based on their history, mission, etc.  Anyhow, this parish in Denver, was a dwindling parish, constantly in the red (and yet bloated with dead weight lay staff members).  So  they have began trying to market themselves as the parish belonging to the Dominicans and use preaching as one of it's tag, but the council of elders were like no because preaching has a negative connotation and using Dominican in the advertisement makes the laity feel excluded.  Really, I understand the need for oversight in a parish you don't want a priest skimming money to buy a Rolls Royce, you want to belong to the parish, but really the building is own by the Dominicans, built by the Dominicans, staffed by the Dominicans whose mission is preaching!   

John64 Wrote:"A big problem I notice is for those of us who are new to the TLM and want to learn more is that where I attend the TLM I have gotten cold stares and dirty looks and cold responses to questions, even the priest I talked to seemed unfriendly"

It varies from community to community.  I think there are two parts to it.  You have people who whose function when attending Mass is worshiping God and have tunnel vision toward the altar.  One of  the common complaints about the trads from people I know is that they carry their dour faces when at Church and we should rather rejoice because the Risen Lord.  The other half is presumably most trads are off the scale introverts like myself and social interaction is difficult.  And remember too that since it was suppressed, you have what I call survivor syndrome, like I have seen this with people who grow up in eastern bloc nations where they are very afraid of everything, trying to hide things.  I find among younger people, particularly couples, they are usually much friendlier.  In my experience, diocesan TLM tend to be friendlier but it really depends on who the community started out with, you can tell a lot about any parish by the people who found it. 

Vox Wrote:"My take on the "toxic trad" phenomenon, which is what we're talking about here, is that traditional Catholicism attracts intellectuals."

I would argue there is a lot of faux intellectuals (and they are a dime a dozen in every sphere of life) in the toxic trads as well as people who may well be mentally ill.  I think the appeal for the TLM for some people is that it is safe, consistent, and deeply intimate, a rock of stability that many people are unable to find in life or at the NO, and as you study more and more your world is consume by it because of the sheer beauty and depth, but then it becomes about uber-defense and isolating yourself and unable to grow as a person becoming bitter and angry and resentful.  In other words you become Gollum with TLM being the one ring.  I would even further say that this just as common in NO communities (though under slightly different circumstances), but as I mentioned the trads get the bad rap because it becomes magnified.  Remember, this is the hard selling point in all of this especially to the secularist, the Catholic is composed of both saints and sinners not just saints and there are far more sinners.   


Modified by Vox to help a brother out with quoting. To quote someone, put quote and /quote tags, in brackets, around the text you are quoting. Like this:

[Image: howtoquote.JPG]

You don't  need to use the username (if you don't, just drop the = sign), but you should do so at least for the first quote in a series of quotes from the same person so folks will know who said what.

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#16
Hello,
Yes this is good news indeed, but I'll second the remarks of John64 and CatholicSteve. Somehow the people from the NO are more friendly. Rather, what I mean is that the trads are usually more reserved to the point that in comparison to the NO people they seem unfriendly. I didn't have the experience John had (and I'm somewhat new to the TLM), and I actually think the traditional people I've encountered are rather good people, but I still haven't got the opportunity to befriend anyone – again, they are quite reserved. Its funny that I've found that its just easier to find people who hate tradition than people who hate modernity, and somehow trads get the reputation that they are more hateful (oh yes, I'm sure there are those strident people here or there on silly websites, but still).

And also, I don't know if this is any rule, but trads just don't seem to evangelize, not Protestant and not other Catholics (and what better way to evangelize than the right worship of the living God? After all, Jesus redeemed us not just to be free from sin, but to worship God); maybe this is because I live in a “catholic” country and because they think the NO is just OK. But really, its not. Of course, God is so powerful that He can still make something valid out of those obnoxious guitar masses, but one is not getting the fullness of the Church, of the life in Christ, in those masses.

These have implications on one of the great suggestions made by AntoniusMaximus (by the way, one of my dreams is that, if I ever get to have wife and children, to make Latin a kind of household language lol; but I'd not like to have my politics and economic readings in Latin, much less have TV shows, comedy sketches, etc. in Latin – that would be hateful indeed). At the risk of sounding too Apocalyptic, I think the creation of such communities of traditional minded Catholics can be just what saves our civilization – just like the Benedictines saved Europe – that is, to paraphrase MacIntyre, a community where civilization can not only be preserved, but where it can actually flourish; the sort of community that provides a refuge for those lost in a real dark age (that, in a sense, we already live).  So really, the success of such enterprises lies not only in the isolation from the general decadence and depravity (and, this sort of pure isolation, without a response, can be, as people noticed much earlier, quite confusing and damaging to children), but also on its capacity to help the others, to be inviting, etc. (to paraphrase Our Lord, to be the light and the salt of the earth).
But with the sort of introspection trads generally possess (not to consider the repellent quality in those toxic trads) such communities could easily become an unhealthy place to nurture kids, to educate them and educate outsiders, or even inviting new people (which, considering the mission to baptize and make disciples, is really one of the ends of such communities – perhaps by making “colonies”), and could actually just become those closed neighbourhoods where Muslims or orthodox Jews live.
By the way, related to this, there is this quite nice story, of a family that through the renovation of a  Catholic college in a somewhat abandoned neighbourhood, formed the sort of community AntoniusMaximus called for: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/fareforward...hat-we-do/
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#17
as far as trads helping trads Rod Dreher from the American Conservative[i][/i] has written extensively on what he called the Benedict Option.

Here are several articles he has written on the subject. The first article is the one I have read, I have not read the following but I am sure they are just as interesting.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/a...ct-option/
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/d...ct-option/
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/d...catholics/
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#18
(04-13-2014, 10:16 PM)AntoniusMaximus Wrote:
PrairieMom Wrote:"LOL, I'm not that old (I'm 36), but I'm what you call a "stealth trad" too, or at least I'm trying to be. I think you're right on the money that it's largely due to not wanting to "rock the boat". There's a lot of politics in parishes, and no one wants to be on the wrong side of the majority if they can help it"

Parish politics are the worst, one of the thing many orders are trying to do is "brand" themselves based on their history, mission, etc.  Anyhow, this parish in Denver, was a dwindling parish, constantly in the red (and yet bloated with dead weight lay staff members).  So  they have began trying to market themselves as the parish belonging to the Dominicans and use preaching as one of it's tag, but the council of elders were like no because preaching has a negative connotation and using Dominican in the advertisement makes the laity feel excluded.  Really, I understand the need for oversight in a parish you don't want a priest skimming money to buy a Rolls Royce, you want to belong to the parish, but really the building is own by the Dominicans, built by the Dominicans, staffed by the Dominicans whose mission is preaching!   

The very IDEA of "parish politics" sickens me. All those committees and meetings and lay-busybodies with their little agendas -- enough already! The priest should be running the show, with a good, TRAD ear to the concerns of the folks in the pews while standing absolutely firm on liturgy and teaching, period the end. Some financial oversight is a good idea, but it shouldn't come with any ability to pull strings in terms of how the liturgy goes; it should just be a matter of having a check so the priest can relax knowing that his parishioners know he's on the level with the finances, and the parishioners can chillax and be comfortable giving without worrying that money would be spent on a Gay Caribbean Cruise, etc.

(04-13-2014, 10:16 PM)AntoniusMaximus Wrote:
John64 Wrote:"A big problem I notice is for those of us who are new to the TLM and want to learn more is that where I attend the TLM I have gotten cold stares and dirty looks and cold responses to questions, even the priest I talked to seemed unfriendly"

It varies from community to community.  I think there are two parts to it.  You have people who whose function when attending Mass is worshiping God and have tunnel vision toward the altar.  One of  the common complaints about the trads from people I know is that they carry their dour faces when at Church and we should rather rejoice because the Risen Lord.  The other half is presumably most trads are off the scale introverts like myself and social interaction is difficult.  And remember too that since it was suppressed, you have what I call survivor syndrome, like I have seen this with people who grow up in eastern bloc nations where they are very afraid of everything, trying to hide things.  I find among younger people, particularly couples, they are usually much friendlier.  In my experience, diocesan TLM tend to be friendlier but it really depends on who the community started out with, you can tell a lot about any parish by the people who found it. 

The folks who expect the "rejoicing face" during the Mass don't understand the Mass. But before and after the Mass, a happy countenance (for those who can pull that off LOL) goes far. At the very least, basic civility, introducing yourself to new people, introducing newbies around, asking the new guy to stick around for the coffee and donuts if that's going on, or asking him out to breakfast, etc. -- all good things.

Yeah, some folks are very introverted (I'm an introvert who can come off like an extravert sometimes -- and then need to be alone to RECHARGE). But even introverts like kindness and politeness. As with everything else, though, some folks are better suited forsome  things than other folks are, so the sanguine extraverts should take it upon themselves to adopt the role of "greeter" and "introducer of people" before or, esp. after Mass (NOT during, obviously). I think if I were a priest who ran a parish, I'd try to single out folks with that sort of gift and ask them to help out with it (and I'd single out folks with other types of gifts and find things for them to do if they have the time and will...)

(04-13-2014, 10:16 PM)AntoniusMaximus Wrote:
Vox Wrote:"My take on the "toxic trad" phenomenon, which is what we're talking about here, is that traditional Catholicism attracts intellectuals."

I would argue there is a lot of faux intellectuals (and they are a dime a dozen in every sphere of life) in the toxic trads as well as people who may well be mentally ill.  I think the appeal for the TLM for some people is that it is safe, consistent, and deeply intimate, a rock of stability that many people are unable to find in life or at the NO, and as you study more and more your world is consume by it because of the sheer beauty and depth, but then it becomes about uber-defense and isolating yourself and unable to grow as a person becoming bitter and angry and resentful.  In other words you become Gollum with TLM being the one ring.  I would even further say that this just as common in NO communities (though under slightly different circumstances), but as I mentioned the trads get the bad rap because it becomes magnified.  Remember, this is the hard selling point in all of this especially to the secularist, the Catholic is composed of both saints and sinners not just saints and there are far more sinners.   

You got it very right about the "faux intellectuals" -- at least in the sense of folks who are not as smart as they think they are and like to make OTHERS think they are. And "traditional Catholicism" as a "movement" (it so sucks to have to use a word like that with regard to the Church. I always try to put that in quotes.), is considered "fringe" by many and can attract some pretty interesting characters. But what you say about the "appeal for the TLM for some people is that it is safe, consistent, and deeply intimate, a rock of stability that many people are unable to find in life or at the NO" is absolutely, 100% dead-on accurate. It's what I mean when I use the word "anomie" on the FE site's contact page, and how anomie -- that feeling of societal disconnect, feeling rootless and lost in the modern world -- causes folks to want to find something SOLID they can cling on to for dear life, something they think will have alllllllllllll the easy answers, will put everything nicely into boxes (including people). For people fed up -- as I think almost ALL of us are -- with the unnecessary complexities and difficulties of modern life, the lack of a shared vision of the true, good, and beautiful that everyone even at least basically agrees on, the lack of a true and deep sense of community -- wanting something that will make you feel rooted, as a part of something bigger than you are, is so appealing. And the Church DOES offer much of that, praise God! But what the Toxic Trads do is cling on soooooooooooo tightly in the wrong way so that they're too close to the trees to see the forest. They want easy, quick, snappy, black and white answers for everything, and  want for everyone to be put into a nice little clearly-labeled box so all complexity and confusion are erased. Their desire for answers and social sanity becomes ossified -- and rocks are dead.

In Truth, life is complicated, and people are complex, and the Toxic type really "can't" emotionally cope with that. There's a lot of anger at people who don't fit into their boxes, and toward anyone who expresses complexities they don't like hearing (e.g., read Aquinas on Astrology or dreams some time, or check out Pope St. Gregory the Great's NDE and ghost stories and note how, if the facts of what those writings relate were conveyed to them without naming the sources, they go into "New Age deviltry! accusations, just sure as sh** that their Protestantized or Jansenist notions are "THE Catholic Truth," no questions asked, no ifs, ands, buts, or "what ifs?"). There's no room for Mystery and wonder. There's no desire for it. They want things laid out and labeled and certain (note that I am NOT talking about dogma or infallible teachings, etc. I'm talking about things either the Church hasn't spoken about -- or has spoken about, but in ways the Toxics haven't studied and, so, not only don't accept without any investigation, but rage on about with vehemence and great assuredness about their rightness).

What sum this type up for me are fear and anger. All at the same time, I find them infuriating because of the harm they do to the trad "movement" (and what they've done to this forum in the past and to the reputation of my website itself because of my laxity in allowing them free rein for too long); sad and rather pathetic because they simply must be miserable inside; annoying; often cruel; and, to be really frank about it, boring as Hell. They're a very boring type without that sense of Mystery and wonder, without humor and a sense of joy and playfulness! I worry about the children raised by this type of couple, I truly do. And I definitely believe that the future of the trad "movement" depends in large part in ensuring that "Toxic Traddism" is battled and defeated, because I will bet you one hundred Yankee dollars that a VERY sizable majority of children raised in such a family WILL bolt as soon as they're able (either bolt or, if their sense of the world has been so contaminated that they're too afraid to actually leave, get involved in drug/alcohol abuse, promiscuity, etc.)
 
Sigh.

But still, Tradition IS winning, alleluia! We've just got TONS of WORK to do!


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#19
Quote:So really, the success of such enterprises lies not only in the isolation from the general decadence and depravity (and, this sort of pure isolation, without a response, can be, as people noticed much earlier, quite confusing and damaging to children), but also on its capacity to help the others, to be inviting, etc. (to paraphrase Our Lord, to be the light and the salt of the earth).
But with the sort of introspection trads generally possess (not to consider the repellent quality in those toxic trads) such communities could easily become an unhealthy place to nurture kids, to educate them and educate outsiders, or even inviting new people (which, considering the mission to baptize and make disciples, is really one of the ends of such communities – perhaps by making “colonies”), and could actually just become those closed neighbourhoods where Muslims or orthodox Jews live.

I have been thinking a lot lately about how we could succeed at creating one, do we go rural or urban?  I believe we can do both and we need both farmers and industrialists, and I believe that there will be some major shifting in the economy in the next 10 years where if we use technology to our advantage, it will help.  The key to success is that the leaders of a trad community need to be practical and not idealistic, we are not utopians after all.  
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#20
Based on what I had experienced here, NO people are good and friendly. But people in the diocesan TLM are very warm-hearted and charitable.

But in SSPX there is a little bit coldness among them and they are suspicious of new comers, but they are very good people as well.

I know we are still minority in the church, but we are growing and we have vocations. That's it!



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